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  #321  
Old 15.11.2015, 21:11
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

well the West loved him and sold him lots and lots of arms...
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  #322  
Old 15.11.2015, 21:14
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

Back to thread ...

Question how many people were really involved?

Paris attacks: Police seek 'dangerous' Abdeslam Salah
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34826117
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  #323  
Old 15.11.2015, 21:16
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Shooting civilians they don't know, randomly, is warfare?
You've heard of Rotterdam, Coventry, Hiroshima, Dresden, presumably?
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  #324  
Old 15.11.2015, 21:18
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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How is it random if ISIS have clearly stated that the attack is in retaliation for French bombing of its bases and people?? This is asymmetric warfare, and its something that all governments should plan and prepare for if they are going to make war with such a ruthless enemy.
It is random because the people attacked have/had no direct connection with French bombing of its bases and people.
Over at least a dozen of the victims were not French.

It is within the realms of possibility that the people killed could have been actually against the idea of the French bombing of ISIS bases and people.

However it was certainly a very strong symbolic strike against France and a major terror event.

Seems three of the attackers have now been identified as French so increasingly difficult to link this with the refugee situation.

Reports coming in that the security at the football stadium was excellent (assuming the reports are correct!). It is claimed a security guard recognised a terrorist was wearing a suicide vest; the terrorist backed away and then fired the vest. A second terrorist then panicked and also fired his suicide vest. Between them they only claimed one victim; imagine the carnage if they had actually been allowed into the stadium
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  #325  
Old 15.11.2015, 21:28
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

The great Tony Benn of course had sussed it out already in 1992

https://youtu.be/GPL-IaFpcZA
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  #326  
Old 15.11.2015, 21:33
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Never happened when old Saddam was in charge, though, did it?

Whatever happened to him, I wonder...?
Hmmm

It is estimated that during Saddam's reign between at least a quarter million and possibly as many as half a million people were murdered by the Govt.

For example during the "Anfal campaign" attacks resulted in the death of at least 180,000 Kurdish people, many of them women and children.
There are also estimates that Saddam murdered at least 100,000 Shiites

People are still finding mass graves dating from Saddam's reign

So after the Western invasion not a lot changed in terms of the death rates for the poor sods who lived there

Methods of torture used by Hussein's regime included assault with brass knuckles and wooden bludgeons; electric shocks to the genitalia; red hot metal rods being forced into body orifices; the crushing of toes and removal of toenails; burning off limbs; lowering prisoners into vats of acid; poisoning with thallium; raping women in front of their family members; the crushing of bones; the amputation of ears, limbs, and tongues; and the gouging of eyes.
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  #327  
Old 15.11.2015, 21:35
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

sounds a bit like the kind of stuff done by the French army in the wars of independence in North Africa- tragically
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  #328  
Old 15.11.2015, 21:39
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Hmmm

It is estimated that during Saddam's reign between at least a quarter million and possibly as many as half a million people were murdered by the Govt.

For example during the "Anfal campaign" attacks resulted in the death of at least 180,000 Kurdish people, many of them women and children.
There are also estimates that Saddam murdered at least 100,000 Shiites

People are still finding mass graves dating from Saddam's reign

So after the Western invasion not a lot changed in terms of the death rates for the poor sods who lived there

Methods of torture used by Hussein's regime included assault with brass knuckles and wooden bludgeons; electric shocks to the genitalia; red hot metal rods being forced into body orifices; the crushing of toes and removal of toenails; burning off limbs; lowering prisoners into vats of acid; poisoning with thallium; raping women in front of their family members; the crushing of bones; the amputation of ears, limbs, and tongues; and the gouging of eyes.
Yup. He was a total bastard. But he kept a lid on things there, and that was to the benefit of the people of Europe.
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  #329  
Old 15.11.2015, 21:40
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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The great Tony Benn of course had sussed it out already in 1992

https://youtu.be/GPL-IaFpcZA
Just reminded me of the great man he was...
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  #330  
Old 15.11.2015, 21:53
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

Indeed- very poor picture on this one- but he says it all so clearly

https://youtu.be/Ra7EZo0LAzY
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  #331  
Old 15.11.2015, 21:55
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Hmmm

It is estimated that during Saddam's reign between at least a quarter million and possibly as many as half a million people were murdered by the Govt.

For example during the "Anfal campaign" attacks resulted in the death of at least 180,000 Kurdish people, many of them women and children.
There are also estimates that Saddam murdered at least 100,000 Shiites

People are still finding mass graves dating from Saddam's reign

So after the Western invasion not a lot changed in terms of the death rates for the poor sods who lived there

Methods of torture used by Hussein's regime included assault with brass knuckles and wooden bludgeons; electric shocks to the genitalia; red hot metal rods being forced into body orifices; the crushing of toes and removal of toenails; burning off limbs; lowering prisoners into vats of acid; poisoning with thallium; raping women in front of their family members; the crushing of bones; the amputation of ears, limbs, and tongues; and the gouging of eyes.
The only problem with this argument is that the US continued to support him whilst he used chemical weapons against Iran (1983) and his own people in Halabja (1988). Its even on record that Donald Rumsfeld travelled to Baghdad a few days after his 83 chemical attack, ostensibly to show US support for his government and sell him more weapons. And then after his gassing of the Kurds in 1988 Bush Snr and Bob Dole fought against any sanctions on Iraq, thus showing their indifference to the massacre.

So when Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bush et al cited his use of chemical weapons for going to war in 2003, you could have excused the world wide cynicism.
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  #332  
Old 15.11.2015, 21:56
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

You can insist on offering rationalisation for why these terrorists massacred innocent French people in Paris. Just know where you stand and who you are speaking for. Like I said, I don't see how any of those killed yesterday shared the collective guilt you assume should be ascribed to them.

People with clear consciences are quite clear about what took place yesterday. Its high time for people to put away their moral uncertainties on how to deal with this situation.
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  #333  
Old 15.11.2015, 21:58
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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You can insist on offering rationalisation for why these terrorists massacred innocent French people in Paris. Just know where you stand and who you are speaking for. Like I said, I don't see how any of those killed yesterday shared the collective guilt you assume should be ascribed to them.

People with clear consciences are quite clear about what took place yesterday. Its high time for people to put away their moral uncertainties on how to deal with this situation.
Who are you arguing against, Phos?
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  #334  
Old 15.11.2015, 21:58
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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The great Tony Benn of course had sussed it out already in 1992

https://youtu.be/GPL-IaFpcZA
... and here another great Charlie Chaplin's speech from 1940, which sums it all up


Last edited by jacek; 15.11.2015 at 22:22.
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  #335  
Old 15.11.2015, 22:07
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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The only problem with this argument is that the US continued to support him whilst he used chemical weapons against Iran (1983) and his own people in Halabja (1988). Its even on record that Donald Rumsfeld travelled to Baghdad a few days after his 83 chemical attack, ostensibly to show US support for his government and sell him more weapons. And then after his gassing of the Kurds in 1988 Bush Snr and Bob Dole fought against any sanctions on Iraq, thus showing their indifference to the massacre.

So when Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bush et al cited his use of chemical weapons for going to war in 2003, you could have excused the world wide cynicism.
It was a statement of fact not an argument.
Intended for the people who say "look how many people died in Iraq after the invasion".
Actually not so different from the numbers before the invasion!

So what actually changed?
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  #336  
Old 15.11.2015, 22:09
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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So what actually changed?
Dead Europeans.
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  #337  
Old 15.11.2015, 22:11
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Shooting civilians they don't know, randomly, is warfare?

Thank you.

Of course. Actually in the rule books of the western armies as well, just by different names. 2nd battle of Falujah is a good example.
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  #338  
Old 15.11.2015, 22:28
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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It was a statement of fact not an argument.
Intended for the people who say "look how many people died in Iraq after the invasion".
Actually not so different from the numbers before the invasion!

So what actually changed?
What changed is that before he was toppled, random bombs weren't going off in market places, people weren't being kidnapped for ransom and Al Queda had no presence whatsoever in the country. His worst excesses were clearly in the late 80s, culminating in the invasion of Kuwait. After that he was pretty quiescent, keen to avoid another scrap with the Americans... well actually, planning to sell his oil in Euros was a pretty stupid move that probably better explains his downfall.
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  #339  
Old 15.11.2015, 22:47
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

Interestingly both themes dominate over the FB profiles with temporary flags of France and Lebanon in background. One mustn't forget about another terrorist attack on innocent people which has taken place not so long ago in Beirut bringing the death toll to 41 ...

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34805466
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  #340  
Old 15.11.2015, 23:24
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

Just got a news feed that 10 French airplanes dumped 20 bombs over Raqqa.

Edit, here's a link. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-11-1...tacker/6943082
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