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View Poll Results: Are you in favour of bombing Syria now
yes 11 21.15%
no 34 65.38%
unsure 7 13.46%
Voters: 52. You may not vote on this poll

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  #61  
Old 03.12.2015, 15:12
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Re: Are you a terrorist or sympathiser?

I'm neither. I'm a bystander watching this clusterf**k playing out just a few flying hours away from here.

History will recall that everyone messed up big time and no one will really recall why they started dropping death on people in the first place as they try to extricate themselves from the madness that already exists.

If it was a fable, the moral would be that it might be better for the neighbors to talk to the bad dictator and use their own powers of persuasion rather than arming everyone to the teeth and then turning their backs on the ensuing stream of refugees and injured.

The Arab World has been shown up for what it truly is, a bunch of rich megalomaniacs who love to shop for fun, for their egos and for expensive weapon systems. And the west and east do so love to sell them all this stuff to keep their supply of oil flowing and their domestic industries plied with trade.

History told us that the Americans couldn't turn back the spread of communism in Vietnam by bombing for peace. But at least their aims were clear back then and even before Nixon threw up his hands and let Saigon fall, you'd have thought that it was obvious that you can't fight a civil war by proxy.

Here are some short term good ideas IMHO:

- Stop indiscriminate bombing of anyone in Syria or northern Iraq
- Kick Turkey out of NATO
- Have the US & Russians lead a UN force of ground troops to restore some semblance of sanity and law in Syria
- Stop selling anything more technically advanced than a hammer to the Saudis, Kuwaitis and other Gulf Nations who are stoking the fire for their own political gains
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  #62  
Old 03.12.2015, 15:28
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Re: Are you a terrorist or sympathiser?

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Yes. But apart from St. Paul, culture, cuisine, providing a workforce, and revelations on the road to Damascus. What have the Syrians ever done for us?
a masterful set-up of a monty python joke and all i get is a measly 6 thanks. i shouldn't have bothered getting out of bed.
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  #63  
Old 03.12.2015, 15:29
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Re: Are you a terrorist or sympathiser?

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In all practicality, the only way to end any war is to bomb the *hit out of a country.
It was done in Japan and ended that war. It was done to Dresden and Berlin and ended that war.
Nowadays its all just talk-talk, promenading for cameras, media hype, political popularity.
Different war.
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Old 03.12.2015, 15:31
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Re: Are you a terrorist or sympathiser?

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- Stop indiscriminate bombing of anyone in Syria or northern Iraq
- Kick Turkey out of NATO
- Have the US & Russians lead a UN force of ground troops to restore some semblance of sanity and law in Syria
- Stop selling anything more technically advanced than a hammer to the Saudis, Kuwaitis and other Gulf Nations who are stoking the fire for their own political gains

What ! This needs skill and hard work ,it won't work
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  #65  
Old 03.12.2015, 15:31
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Re: Are you a terrorist or sympathiser?

Exactly - 1 enemy in 1 geographical area - done. In this case ... doh
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  #66  
Old 03.12.2015, 15:32
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Re: Are you a terrorist or sympathiser?

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History told us that the Americans couldn't turn back the spread of communism in Vietnam by bombing for peace.
On this point, although America lost the battle for Vietnam in the 70's, it did stop the domino effect cascading across the neighboring countries. I believe communist insurgents in neighboring countries saw Vietnam and said, "Hell no". We don't want to do that here. And then Vietnam goes capitalist a few decades later. Seems like a thought out response.
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  #67  
Old 03.12.2015, 15:50
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Re: Are you a terrorist or sympathiser?

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On this point, although America lost the battle for Vietnam in the 70's, it did stop the domino effect cascading across the neighboring countries. I believe communist insurgents in neighboring countries saw Vietnam and said, "Hell no". We don't want to do that here. And then Vietnam goes capitalist a few decades later. Seems like a thought out response.
Want to tell that to the Cambodians?
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  #68  
Old 03.12.2015, 15:57
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Re: Are you a terrorist or sympathiser?

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Want to tell that to the Cambodians?
The spread of the evil was pretty well developed in Burma, Laos and Cambodia. It was in nascent stages in Thailand, Malaysia and the Philippines, where it pretty much stopped. Had it spread further, you would have seen more genocide in those places.
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Old 03.12.2015, 16:28
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Re: Are you a terrorist or sympathiser?

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On this point, although America lost the battle for Vietnam in the 70's, it did stop the domino effect cascading across the neighboring countries. I believe communist insurgents in neighboring countries saw Vietnam and said, "Hell no". We don't want to do that here. And then Vietnam goes capitalist a few decades later. Seems like a thought out response.
It wasn't the result of US bombing that turned Vietnam to capitalism but the global self-implosion of communism.

This would have happened much the same plus or minus a couple more countries in the area.

Maybe had the other countries become communist there would have been more suffering there through persecutions and revolutionary acts. But if you want to argue the Us bombing of Vietnam prevented that, then how many lives did they have to take in Vietnam to save how many lives in other countries? I'm not sure the balance is going to be positive.
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Old 03.12.2015, 16:31
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Re: Are you a terrorist or sympathiser?

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please define what you mean by the "war" and who exactly is the enemy? do you include the Saudis in this war?
Defining "war"? Was not Japan warring? Germany warring? Both of them were sorted out drastically and finally. Doesn`t seem to have been any concern about who exactly got killed in the bombing - it stopped those wars.

The bleeding hearts don`t seem to have any concerns for countries that try to live in peace, provide good living conditions, and attempt to stay away from violence. Who live democratically.

When countries get out of control to the extent that it begins to threaten the security of countries who do have control - swamping them with refugees, terrorising citizens going about their ordinary lives, becoming Leeches attaching themselves to social security services provided by those who live in those safe and secure countries .... something needs to be done, and done drastically, to put a stop to it.

Maybe the Saudis are part of the plan, who knows? Time will tell. The Muslim world sticks together. The Saudis have their own agenda. Europe has been warned for many many years that Islam will over-run it, that the "non-believers" will be eradicated. And then, maybe, like Zimbabwe, there will "The Great European Ruins" for future generations to visit and ogle and speculate about "what happened here"?

But then again, the Saudis have the money to rebuild everything, once it`s been thoroughly demolished, be it Europe .... or Syria ... or Iran ... or whatever takes their fancy. Obama seems to be enjoying lucrative business in arms deals with them. I wonder why?

I still say, are there any real leaders who dare to demolish the strongholds of this legendary ISIS? Or is everyone just obtusely stupid?

Is it really that hard to find and bomb hide-outs of enemies? It was done in the olden days, without satellites, very successfully. These days it seems to be difficult? I wonder why?

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Old 03.12.2015, 16:33
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Re: Are you a terrorist or sympathiser?

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It wasn't the result of US bombing that turned Vietnam capitalist but the global self-implosion of communism.

This would have happened much the same plus or minus a couple more countries in the area.

Maybe had the other countries become communist there would have been more suffering there through persecutions and revolutionary acts. But if you want to argue the Us bombing of Vietnam prevented that, then how many lives did they have to take in Vietnam to save how many lives in other countries? I'm nor sure the balance is going to be positive.
meh, not what I posted at all. Like I said, the US lost Vietnam, but Communism's domino effect was stalled there.

I think I bring that up to point out that war is ugly, and the results can be disastrous, but it could be also be worse without it. Pacifism and appeasement may be proper for minor insignificant conflicts, but can be catastrophic for major conflicts of major principles.
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  #72  
Old 03.12.2015, 16:33
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Re: Are you a terrorist or sympathiser?

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I just looked up the word 'hypocrite' in the Oxford Dictionary
Are you taking a leaf out of the Tory books and taking things out of context?

The Russian bombing was all anti Assad forces...not just Daesh
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  #73  
Old 03.12.2015, 16:43
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Different war.

Was a war. Is any war "different"? It`s all about killing. Those who kill the most, win. How else does any country defend itself? War is brutal. Fact of life. Face it or not, remains a fact.

So we go on seeing videos of ISIS beheading civilian men, women and children, reading about the raping of the women, the starvation that is happening there, the infiltration of suicide bombers and terrorists into peaceful countries - because we don`t like the idea of wiping out the source? It`s too brutal! Are they not brutal? "Live by the sword, die by the sword" - they are asking for it, and no-one is giving it to them.
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  #74  
Old 03.12.2015, 16:47
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Re: Are you a terrorist or sympathiser?

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meh, not what I posted at all. Like I said, the US lost Vietnam, but Communism's domino effect was stalled there.

I think I bring that up to point out that war is ugly, and the results can be disastrous, but it could be also be worse without it. Pacifism and appeasement may be proper for minor insignificant conflicts, but can be catastrophic for major conflicts of major principles.
I'm not convinced that the US involvement in Vietnam did turn the tide or just marked the high-tide point that would have happened anyway. Communism was slowly running out of steam because it was an inefficient system and was thus falling back economically. You can't be top guy militarily if you haven't got the economic motor to back that up, and propaganda can work for a while but sooner or later people see through it.The Soviet Union alraedy had problems in the 1960s lthough the full scale of these was not visible at the time. The tide was already turning against them.

You could equally argue that Afghanistan was the last domino in the spread of communism. It hurt the USSR badly, but by this point the USSR had already fallen behind in a serious way but was just living the dream of its past glory. What would have come after Afghanistan? Pakistan? India? I don't think so somehow. There were lots of countries out there (including the likes of Syria and Egypt) who trailed the Soviet line nominally but essentially accepted aid to use as they liked. the Soviet machine was running out of force.

Why did the Americans win? Because they had a long term plan. They knew they needed to get ahead and stay ahead and this was a continuous policy from Truman to Raegan. And they won because they were succesful at marching through with that plan.

Fast forward to today. Who has the long term plan and who is doing random acts? To me it seems the Saudis and their friends have the long term plan and are pulling it through while everybody else is dancing around at temporary diversions. Somebody needs to wake up, and fast.
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  #75  
Old 03.12.2015, 17:00
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Re: Are you a terrorist or sympathiser?

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I'm not convinced that the US involvement in Vietnam did turn the tide or just marked the high-tide point that would have happened anyway. Communism was slowly running out of steam because it was an inefficient system and was thus falling back economically. You can't be top guy militarily if you haven't got the economic motor to back that up, and propaganda can work for a while but sooner or later people see through it.The Soviet Union alraedy had problems in the 1960s lthough the full scale of these was not visible at the time. The tide was already turning against them.

You could equally argue that Afghanistan was the last domino in the spread of communism. It hurt the USSR badly, but by this point the USSR had already fallen behind in a serious way but was just living the dream of its past glory. What would have come after Afghanistan? Pakistan? India? I don't think so somehow. There were lots of countries out there (including the likes of Syria and Egypt) who trailed the Soviet line nominally but essentially accepted aid to use as they liked. the Soviet machine was running out of force.

Why did the Americans win? Because they had a long term plan. They knew they needed to get ahead and stay ahead and this was a continuous policy from Truman to Raegan. And they won because they were succesful at marching through with that plan.

Fast forward to today. Who has the long term plan and who is doing random acts? To me it seems the Saudis and their friends have the long term plan and are pulling it through while everybody else is dancing around at temporary diversions. Somebody needs to wake up, and fast.
On this, I do have first hand knowledge of what the US undertook in Asia, as well as what Communist insurgents encountered. And no need to identify Vietnam as the pinnacle of anything, but it certainly was part of the plan to disrupt the domino effect, and it did disrupt it in neighboring countries.

Vietnam is a bit off topic, but the point about having a plan is the key to winning a war......

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Was a war. Is any war "different"? It`s all about killing. Those who kill the most, win. How else does any country defend itself? War is brutal. Fact of life. Face it or not, remains a fact.

So we go on seeing videos of ISIS beheading civilian men, women and children, reading about the raping of the women, the starvation that is happening there, the infiltration of suicide bombers and terrorists into peaceful countries - because we don`t like the idea of wiping out the source? It`s too brutal! Are they not brutal? "Live by the sword, die by the sword" - they are asking for it, and no-one is giving it to them.

...because if you go into a war without a plan of how you will be coming out of it, you ARE guaranteed to lose that war. And this is where some of this is important to consider. Going after an enemy you don't understand is the dumbest way to engage a war. You need to plan the exit of a war before you enter. I don't think we have that in this situation.
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  #76  
Old 03.12.2015, 17:09
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a masterful set-up of a monty python joke and all i get is a measly 6 thanks. i shouldn't have bothered getting out of bed.
It was from Monty Python? 😜
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  #77  
Old 03.12.2015, 17:09
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Re: Are you a terrorist or sympathiser?

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Defining "war"? Was not Japan warring? Germany warring? Both of them were sorted out drastically and finally. Doesn`t seem to have been any concern about who exactly got killed in the bombing - it stopped those wars.

The bleeding hearts don`t seem to have any concerns for countries that try to live in peace, provide good living conditions, and attempt to stay away from violence. Who live democratically.

When countries get out of control to the extent that it begins to threaten the security of countries who do have control - swamping them with refugees, terrorising citizens going about their ordinary lives, becoming Leeches attaching themselves to social security services provided by those who live in those safe and secure countries .... something needs to be done, and done drastically, to put a stop to it.

Maybe the Saudis are part of the plan, who knows? Time will tell. The Muslim world sticks together. The Saudis have their own agenda. Europe has been warned for many many years that Islam will over-run it, that the "non-believers" will be eradicated. And then, maybe, like Zimbabwe, there will "The Great European Ruins" for future generations to visit and ogle and speculate about "what happened here"?

But then again, the Saudis have the money to rebuild everything, once it`s been thoroughly demolished, be it Europe .... or Syria ... or Iran ... or whatever takes their fancy. Obama seems to be enjoying lucrative business in arms deals with them. I wonder why?

I still say, are there any real leaders who dare to demolish the strongholds of this legendary ISIS? Or is everyone just obtusely stupid?

Is it really that hard to find and bomb hide-outs of enemies? It was done in the olden days, without satellites, very successfully. These days it seems to be difficult? I wonder why?

Groan button on bottom right hand corner.
Your post is not worth groaning but its a good rant and you forgot to throw in "political correctness" along with the "bleeding hearts"!

It's interesting you equate the war against Germany and Japan with what is going on in Syria and Iraq right now.

To bomb the "*hit" out of your enemy you should at least know who your enemy is. That's why I asked you about Saudi Arabia. Do you seriously think that bombing ISIS is really going to "win the war"? You need to attack the ideology otherwise another form of radical Jihadism will rise up in a few years time.
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  #78  
Old 03.12.2015, 18:45
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Re: Are you a terrorist or sympathiser?

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Old 03.12.2015, 19:18
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You need to attack the ideology otherwise another form of radical Jihadism will rise up in a few years time.
So can you clarify who needs to attack what?
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Old 03.12.2015, 20:26
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Re: Are you a terrorist or sympathiser?

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So can you clarify who needs to attack what?
The good guys have to beat the bad guys, with the help of the local good guys. Then the local good guys can turn nasty and become the bad guys and we can join with the old bad guys, who are now OK guys, and do it all again.

Only problem is the really bad guys are sitting across the border laughing their butts off because everybody is too scared to deal with them because they have oil and lots of foreign investments.
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