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  #41  
Old 08.12.2015, 16:12
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Re: French far right looking to lead the election

The vast majority of North African immigrants in France have been there for several generations, and not 'new' at all. They are poorly integrated in France- as compared to the UK for instance- because they are not accepted- rather than t'other way round. The UK has overall embraced multiculturalism- facilitating integration- France has not.

Anyone who has studied FRench culture and politics, and lived there for a while will be aware of this. Even when working hard and achieving good qualifications despite things stacked against them (eg poor schools in poor Cité guettos) it is extremely difficult for young North AFricans (2nd, 3r or even 4th generation) to find a job, a flat to rent, a loan for anything, etc- in a way that just doesn't or couldnt' happen in the UK.
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  #42  
Old 08.12.2015, 16:13
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Re: French far right looking to lead the election

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The UK has overall embraced multiculturalism
Only a white person could write that.
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  #43  
Old 08.12.2015, 16:22
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Re: French far right looking to lead the election

as someone who lived in and around Leicester, you very well know that is not true.

I could give you strings ans strings of examples to illustrate my statement above- personally witnessed or lived in France- which could never ever happen in the UK. Of course, the UK and France have a very different colonial history, and the UK still has a very strong religious connection to CofE, whereas France has gone the secular route a long time ago. Secularism in France is a very strange animal actually- as there are so many cheap private Catholic schools ! but nothing else is tolerated. Where the best, hardest working and most intelligent students can still be excluded from school for wearing a simple coloured scarf, and no teacher allowed to wear a simple coloured scarf either, or any civil servant of any kind. The Head of Humanities in one of my school in Leicester wore a turban as a sikh.
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  #44  
Old 08.12.2015, 16:23
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Re: French far right looking to lead the election

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The vast majority of North African immigrants in France have been there for several generations, and not 'new' at all. They are poorly integrated in France- as compared to the UK for instance- because they are not accepted- rather than t'other way round. The UK has overall embraced multiculturalism- facilitating integration- France has not. Anyone who has studied FRench culture and politics, and lived there for a while will be aware of this. Even when working hard and achieving good qualifications despite things stacked against them (eg poor schools in poor Cité guettos) it is extremely difficult for young North AFricans (2nd, 3r or even 4th generation) to find a job, a flat to rent, a loan for anything, etc- in a way that just doesn't or couldnt' happen in the UK.
Well that's the "it's the society's fault" view of the problem. Now I can tell you that Italians, Polish, Portuguese, Russian etc..immigrants were at least as poor as Muslim immigrants and lived in the same ghettos but managed to integrate. There also are plenty cases of perfect integration of muslim immigrants in french society. French grandes ecoles are filled with Marocans or Tunisians with high tradition of excellence in math. No integratoin issues or no unemployment for them...
I think that it's more of a cultural issue. In Muslim families the father is very authoritarian, the mother obedient. Children have to chose between their home culture or the outside, french one. The daily switch between the two is almost schizophrenic.
And the January attacks showed one thing, so many muslims said that the killings were sad BUT they kind of deserved it as they drew the prophet... They are muslims before being french, even after several generations.
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  #45  
Old 08.12.2015, 16:24
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Re: French far right looking to lead the election

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as someone who lived in and around Leicester, you very well know that is not true.
I know very well that racism and bigotry are absolutely rife in your multicultural paradise. The Brits are no better than anyone else when it comes to being vile to outsiders.
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  #46  
Old 08.12.2015, 16:27
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Re: French far right looking to lead the election

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In Muslim families the father is very authoritarian, the mother obedient.


Know many Muslim families, do you?
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  #47  
Old 08.12.2015, 16:29
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Re: French far right looking to lead the election

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Know many Muslim families, do you?
do you need a statistical study for this?
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  #48  
Old 08.12.2015, 16:29
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Re: French far right looking to lead the election

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do you need a statistical study for this?

Nice dodge.
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  #49  
Old 08.12.2015, 16:31
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Re: French far right looking to lead the election

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I know very well that racism and bigotry are absolutely rife in your multicultural paradise. The Brits are no better than anyone else when it comes to being vile to outsiders.
Of course racsim and bigotry is alive and well in the UK- but it is totally different to the situation in France. Have you ever lived in France, experienced it yourself- talked to many young arabs (I mean French, 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation)- etc? Unless you have, then I'd say it is difficult to comment really.

Do I know many Muslim (Sikh and Hindu) families- in France, in the UK, all over the world- yes I do, thanks.

Zurcherbaby- in my family, Muslim women are very much on par- have great careers and own property, and are very much in charge of their destiny, I can asure you. You are talking about some cultures, not about Islam as such.
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  #50  
Old 08.12.2015, 16:33
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Re: French far right looking to lead the election

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Of course racsim and bigotry is alive and well in the UK- but it is totally different to the situation in France. Have you ever lived in France, experienced it yourself- talked to many young arabs (I mean French, 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation)- etc? Unless you have, then I'd say it is difficult to comment really.

Do I know many Muslim (Sikh and Hindu) families- in France, in the UK, all over the world- yes I do, thanks.
Huh? What has the last sentence got to do with anything?
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  #51  
Old 08.12.2015, 16:34
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Re: French far right looking to lead the election

You asked Zurcherbay- and I replied before you asked me.
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  #52  
Old 08.12.2015, 16:37
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Re: French far right looking to lead the election

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The vast majority of North African immigrants in France have been there for several generations, and not 'new' at all. They are poorly integrated in France- as compared to the UK for instance- because they are not accepted- rather than t'other way round. The UK has overall embraced multiculturalism- facilitating integration- France has not. Anyone who has studied FRench culture and politics, and lived there for a while will be aware of this. Even when working hard and achieving good qualifications despite things stacked against them (eg poor schools in poor Cité guettos) it is extremely difficult for young North AFricans (2nd, 3r or even 4th generation) to find a job, a flat to rent, a loan for anything, etc- in a way that just doesn't or couldnt' happen in the UK.
Uhhh which explains why the UK is so desperate to keep so many of them caged in Northern France....

Face it - they dont integrate because THEY DO NOT WANT TO. They don't want your multiculuralism either - they just want your cash.
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  #53  
Old 08.12.2015, 16:49
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Re: French far right looking to lead the election

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Of course racsim and bigotry is alive and well in the UK- but it is totally different to the situation in France. Have you ever lived in France, experienced it yourself- talked to many young arabs (I mean French, 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation)- etc? Unless you have, then I'd say it is difficult to comment really.
I have lived and worked in towns with high Muslim populations in both the UK and France and in my experience it is not as clear cut and simplistic as you are making out.

There are Muslims who want to integrate, work hard and get a good career in both the UK and France and there are those who don't. The ones who choose to live in their own little area surrounded by Muslims.
There are Brits and French people who welcome Muslims and actively try to help them and there are those who do the exact opposite.

It's impossible to generalise and say that in the UK it's like this and in France it's like that because it isn't like that in reality.
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  #54  
Old 08.12.2015, 17:06
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Re: French far right looking to lead the election

I have no time to reply now, but I sincerely beg to differ. I am not talking about the desire for Muslims to integrate or not- but about the cultural/political systems of the UK and France making it easier or not to integrate without assimilating. In the UK, those who do integrate and work hard have all the doors open to them and can climb the ranks with ease- in France, this is much much more difficult- for a whole array of reasons I do not have time to go into now.

Any hard-working student in the UK with excellent A'Levels can access any Uni of their choice- and will be strongly encouraged to apply for Oxbridge. Try that with the 100s of private universities in FRance, where vast amounts of money are required for several years or pre school- as a tiny example.
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  #55  
Old 08.12.2015, 17:24
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Re: French far right looking to lead the election

While just a single case, the newly crowned CEO of Credit Suisse does indeed lend support to Odile's point according to this (german, sonntagszeitung.ch) as well as other articles:

Black, muslim, african, he studied in France at the Ecole Polytechnique (THE elite university) followed by the Ecole de Mines where he graduated as best of his year, but got very few job interviews. Only after moving to the UK did he get reasonable offers.

Again, it's just a single case. But at least here you can rule out character traits such as inability, unwillingness, etc.
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  #56  
Old 08.12.2015, 17:57
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Re: French far right looking to lead the election

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They are poorly integrated in France- as compared to the UK for instance- because they are not accepted- rather than t'other way round. The UK has overall embraced multiculturalism- facilitating integration- France has not.
Have you ever been to Tower Hamlets?
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  #57  
Old 08.12.2015, 18:02
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Re: French far right looking to lead the election

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Black, muslim, african, he studied in France at the Ecole Polytechnique (THE elite university) followed by the Ecole de Mines where he graduated as best of his year, but got very few job interviews. Only after moving to the UK did he get reasonable offers.
The article also says it was 1983.

A lot of things were different then.
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  #58  
Old 08.12.2015, 18:52
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Re: French far right looking to lead the election

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It's impossible to generalise and say that in the UK it's like this and in France it's like that because it isn't like that in reality.
Well, at the moment where a clearly extreme right winged party hits 30% do I think you can generalize a bit, no? The FN is clearly not in the same league as the SVP but way worse...
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  #59  
Old 08.12.2015, 18:55
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Re: French far right looking to lead the election

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Well, at the moment where a clearly extreme right winged party hits 30% do I think you can generalize a bit, no? The FN is clearly not in the same league as the SVP but way worse...
In the 2014 European Elections, UKIP took 27.5% of the UK vote.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_Independence_Party

Does that 2.5% gap to the FN really make all that much difference?

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  #60  
Old 08.12.2015, 19:25
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Re: French far right looking to lead the election

Leopold Sedar Senghor, one of Africa's leading statesmen in the post-colonial period wrote in one of his poems "Lord, among the white nations, place France at the Father's right hand." No former subject of Her Majesty ever used such words for Britain, never.

Also, I'd like to say something about the purported immunity of english political system from drifting to the right. The main reason can be found in the "first past the post" electoral system which de facto translates in a undemocratic overrepresentation of the two biggest parties. If there was a proportional, with one nation-wide electoral district, representation in the parliament, England wouldn't be much different from France or Switzerland or even Austria, where big right wing parties with 25-30% of the MPs exist.
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