After posting that, who's arrogant now?
Labelling all Westerners just like you're accusing us of labelling all Chinese.

Oh Jazz, I don't need to mention Tiananmen only when someone attacked me on that point. We Chinese have our own criterion of right and wrong, and Tiananmen remains on the wrong side of history to most of us.

Just skip Tiananmen now, or someone would wonder why such a thread can extend to five pages then

No I am not head of the Bureau for Capital Punishment, as such a Bureau never exists. But I have my friends in the Supreme Court, who were sepcialized enough to tell me why it is urgent to revoke the right held by local court and to hand it over to the Supreme Court. Sorry I am too ignorant to know the Van affair. But I guess it's better than group shooting on an execution field or so?

No don't mistake me I do not mean it matters whether Pashosh has been to Singapore or not. Just a remindance that there does exist a continuum between a fully democratic society and a much freer society, such as Singapore and Hong Kong. Personally I prefer the Singaporean model as the right choice for China in the coming twenty years. For the rule of law is more important than democracy for developing countries. I wrote an article on this topic(in Chinese), but regretfully I know your languages but you do not.(although we are talking here about MY country rather than YOURS).

Don't assume I just attacked everywhere like the red guard

Oh no, mind my words please. Lest you feel hurt or become the unintended target, let me paste it here again:

I am unlike certain(not all) ignorant and arrogant Westerners here who never bother to learn our language, know the cultural differences and share experience with our people before they make sarcastic and often blind accusations against our Motherland.

I know many Westerners who were eager to learn the Chinese language and culture and come close to the common Chinese, with whom I became good friend. A Dutch guy actually lived in my private apartment in Beijing for one year, and by the time he left, he said in retrospect "my previous impression about China was totally changed --- to normalty."

So learn to be these persons. Tolerance, not bias, pays.

Sorry, I was being sarcastic. I know it doesn't carry too well over the internet...


Don't jump to too many conclusions. Being called Englishforum only means that we have to communicate in English, not that we aren't allowed to know other languages. Plenty of people on hear who aren't english or who aren't western.

I would say it is 60 now, and 15 twenty years ago, but 0 twenty-eight years ago.

Yes I agree. So i didn't even give you a link to my Chinese blog.

I never intended to imtimidate, if I did, I would be ready to apologize.

bonjour à tous!

I'm a chinese now studying in Geneva. I happened to enter this forum and was overwhelmed by the comments on China and Chinese politics. In fact, I'm not interested in politics, but I agree that people usually have misconceptions or even fear about the other side of the world, which in my opinion, is due to the lack of the knowledge.
The best way to erase or decrease the gap is to have a more objective attitude. It's never easy to hold an opinion without prejudice, but the more we communicate , the nearer we are getting to the truth.
I'd like to share with you my impression of Switzerland next time. The process of getting to know a country is never easy.

the economist gave it 30, I guess that makes them arrogant westerners.

http://www.economist.com/media/pdf/D...EX_2007_v3.pdf

Oh no. I respect The Economist and believe it to be the best magazine in the English speaking world. I have been reading it since university.

But as the Economist article itself says: Although the terms “freedom” and “democracy” are often used interchangeably, the two are not synonymous. So if we were talking about personal freedom, I would still give the rank that " it is 60 now, and 15 twenty years ago, but 0 twenty-eight years ago."

But a one-party state is apparently not a democracy. Thus no wonder Singapore ranks so close to China despite my regard for the Singaporean model. Full democracy is the explicitly stated goal even by the Communist Party of China, which needs the patience of not only our generation within China, but outside as well.

Champson, do include the carbon dioxide emissions in your solution to the world.

Now - which version of Chinese [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_language] would you like us to learn? Do you wish to force that upon us?

My main note is that you have posted almost exclusively on this thread. I don't understand your point; what are you trying to achieve?

You do know most information coming out of China or becoming available to us is limited (truth, quantity, quality) so how do you expect us to know all about China? Is your aim to get us to visit?

With regards to human rights, you're saying that www.amnesty.org who makes claims of gross human rights violations in China are wrong?

No I never intend to force anyone to learn Chinese. They are already many who do it voluntarily. And I think they are those people who are more qualified to talk China.

What am I trying to achieve? Hmm... Let me think.... Communist propaganda? Is that what you mean?

As the title of this thread shows: my goal to achieve is to eradicate the stereotypes and misconceptions on China. Maybe not from the minds of all, but better than no voice is heard.

Amnesty International is right in many cases, and almost every case was repeated by the Western media on a daily or weekly basis. In a country of 1.3 billion, just calculate the percentage of occurence, and you will know whether the conclusion of "wide-spread human rights abuses everywhere where the Chinese live like slaves" is wrong or not.

Make the conclusion by yourself.

I wish I'd never learnt Chinese now.... Does that mean Champson's not qualified to talk about South China and Hong Kong if he only speaks Mandarin?

LR - if you are ever forced, learn Mandarin and simplified characters first. You'll be able to get by in most Chinese speaking places. After that, if some one still has a gun to your head, go for cantonese cos it sounds good when you are prentending to do martial arts.

Oh, guns at the head!

No, in that case, why bother?

I do speak only Mandarin, but no problem with reading and speaking with Hong Kongers and Taiwanese. Their local languages are just dialects like the Swiss German.

Admit it. Knowing the language of another culture helps to get more understanding of its difference. --- But there are also exeptions: I guess the French have difficulties understanding what the French speaking colonies want now.

My dear brother, hope you are doing fine in Zurich. I am still in China now and will come to join you soon.

I am originally from a very small and poor mountainous village in middle China. As described in your article, I do remit money to my mum monthly and support my young brother and sister who are still struggling to survive.

According to my experience from the bottom class to the so-called "middle class", I think the article you posted here which could be misleading even though it does tell part of the truth in East and South China which only represents 30% of our population.

I fully understand your patriotism to our lovely motherland whose territory changes dramatcially in different periods. Regarding the Tibet or XinJiang, I wonder whether you have been there before. But I do believe that people hold different opinions because they have different information sources. I am also a fan of our history, have read some history books rather than what we had in high school. But I do not want to discuss any politics or some sensitive history in the internet since I do not want to be invited to teahouse or cafe by policeman. One of my favorite forum, a club of picasso car owners, was just warned and shut down temporarily due to some of us discussed certain sensitive historic topics.

Exactly. What I stressed before was that many Western readers were not even aware of the 30% of population, but still tend to give China many antiquidated labels instead.

Write me when you arrive in Zurich. Hope your piccasso club is open soon again!

Someone truely loves China :-) Champson I understand where you are coming from but you are slightly blinded by patriotism. Anyway if I ever visit China I will ask you for tips.

Welcome, I would certainly give you the best suggestions I can offer.

I am patriotic, but not blindly patriotic. I must make this point clear. --- I know clearly the remaining problems in China (just as I experienced personally the serious problems in the USA after my recent visit to New York), but the point of this thread is to break the traditional colored-eyeglasses / stereotyped misconceptions about China. This makes my arguments a bit more 'patriotic' than normal.

Go and experience China with open minds! I believe you will love this country.

After 4 pages of this, I am reminded of the old Chinese proverb:

Chinese proverbs ROCK! LOL

A Jade stone is useless before it is processed; a man is good-for-nothing until he is educated.

Shall we start combat with proverbs ? It will be a darn sight more interesting than the current discussion...

dave