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  #421  
Old 14.01.2016, 18:57
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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There is no common Islamic culture - no common language, musical tradition, food, mannerisms, shared history - nothing
Language - Am I wrong or don't all practising muslims (regardless of what continent they are from) perform Salah (prayers) in Arabic?

Food - Don't all muslims, regardless from where they're from, seek to eat Halal meat?

Shared history - Don't all muslims worldwide consider themselves part of a 'global community' (Ummah) with a common ideology?

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Islamic culture refers to things done by some Muslims, normally hundreds of years ago.
And please explain what are things that muslims did hundreds of years ago that have now been abolished or are not practised?
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  #422  
Old 14.01.2016, 20:25
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

First gang assaults are not accepted in any country independent of culture, religion and tradition...(if it was an Islam thing why isn't similar thing happen with the huge turkish population in Germany?)

If the similar people would have done it in a similar way in their home countries they would have been punished...

The problem is that many men from MENA sees western women as very lose similar as many western men sees east european, brazilian or south east asian women...if you have visited Thailand or Brazil you know what I am talking about...

Also this kind of thing (assault against women) is not limited to men from MENA but happens everywhere...

But saying it is only a gender problem is also wrong

I believe the problem is that too many came too quick without any kind of briefing and "training" etc, but there is probably a lot of men who doesn't care...

Short term would be to set an example - i.e. kick out the bad eggs asap!

Long term information, guidance, courses etc...
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  #423  
Old 14.01.2016, 20:42
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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Language - Am I wrong or don't all practising muslims (regardless of what continent they are from) perform Salah (prayers) in Arabic?
Sure, but that's not their language. Most people sing Beatles songs in English too.

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Food - Don't all muslims, regardless from where they're from, seek to eat Halal meat?
Yes, but that's not a food type. Muslims in China eat Chinese food, Muslims in Malaysia eat Malaysian food, Muslims in Pakistan munch on Biryani etc.


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Shared history - Don't all muslims worldwide consider themselves part of a 'global community' (Ummah) with a common ideology?
That's the dream, yes. But even the word Ummah is differentiated explicitly from Sha'b meaning a common culture or ethnicity. And the Ummah is a goal, most would agree it doesn't exist in any but the most ethereal form (witness all the conflicts and schisms within Islam many of which overtake the conflicts between Islam and the outer world).



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And please explain what are things that muslims did hundreds of years ago that have now been abolished or are not practised?
Muslims did and still do many cultural things. But these things are not done because they're Muslims nor are they common among all Muslims. Just because an African writes a great song that doesn't make it a distinctly African song nor does it have a connection or represent all or any Africans.
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  #424  
Old 14.01.2016, 20:44
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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It is a term still used, and the context is obvious for the reasons I listed in the above post. The Islamic faith that people live by has a clear effect on cultural development, and many similar traits can be found to various degrees throughout many Islamic faith cultures. Attitudes to women being a key example.

Engaging in semantics doesn't change that.

So by extension, women must have been treated better in currently Islamic countries pre-Islam. I see.
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  #425  
Old 14.01.2016, 21:07
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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I believe the problem is that too many came too quick without any kind of briefing and "training" etc, but there is probably a lot of men who doesn't care...

Short term would be to set an example - i.e. kick out the bad eggs asap!

Long term information, guidance, courses etc...

Clearly Germany set the wrong tone from the start, or lack of. The very first things many of them did upon entering Germany was illegal, which is entering without papers. But this was waived by Merkel. So the precedent they set was that rule of law is not so important in Germany.

Secondly, they were allowed to get away with a number of transgressions. Police officers are now admitting their superiors instructed them not to pursue asylum seekers, and minimize reporting. They got away with shoplifting, theft, fights, and even reports of other sex crimes. I suppose the message sent to them is that they can do whatever they want.

They really should have been screened upon entering the country, and briefed on what is expected of them. But that was foregone when Merkel swung the doors open.

As I recall, in other countries, there is a social contract signed by the applicant upon entering the country. It stipulates what is expected of them, and also lays out consequences for certain actions. This really needs to be done. This would bypass a lot of the legal hurdles Germany is running up against in addressing this problem. At the moment, for all the hard line German politicians are chattering to the media, they really are ineffective and helpless against this problem. Meanwhile, the extreme right wing will continue to surge with this problem. This is not good for anybody.
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  #426  
Old 14.01.2016, 21:16
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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Muslims did and still do many cultural things. But these things are not done because they're Muslims nor are they common among all Muslims. Just because an African writes a great song that doesn't make it a distinctly African song nor does it have a connection or represent all or any Africans.
There is definitely commonality amongst the various Muslim ethnicities due to Islam. Most of it can be sourced to neurolinguistic concepts found in the language of the Quran. There are ordinances for diet, holidays observances, rites, and behaviors. Don't they all face towards Mecca to pray? Don't they all head to Mecca for the Haj? Aren't the number of prayer times in a day ordained?

I can understand they may use different herbs and seasonings for their foods, or textile fabrics for their clothes. But aren't those differences superficial?
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  #427  
Old 14.01.2016, 21:27
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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There is definitely commonality amongst the various Muslim ethnicities due to Islam. Most of it can be sourced to neurolinguistic concepts found in the language of the Quran. There are ordinances for diet, holidays observances, rites, and behaviors. Don't they all face towards Mecca to pray? Don't they all head to Mecca for the Haj? Aren't the number of prayer times in a day ordained?
So most Muslims cant speak Arabic but in breadth, I'd said there's the same commonality between Muslims as there are between Christians. And I really think that's nothing at all.
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  #428  
Old 14.01.2016, 21:29
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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There is no common Islamic culture - no common language, musical tradition, food, mannerisms, shared history - nothing.
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Sure, but that's not their language. Most people sing Beatles songs in English too.
When they have to speak Arabic to perform Salah, that is a common language they share. 'That is not their language' - That's exactly the point. If there is no common islamic culture and it is not their language, why would they be speaking Arabic then?

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Yes, but that's not a food type. Muslims in China eat Chinese food, Muslims in Malaysia eat Malaysian food, Muslims in Pakistan munch on Biryani etc.
But they all eat meat which has been slaughtered in accordance with islamic law. Do muslims worldwide they not share this ritual? Do the Chinese muslims perform this differently to the Arab muslims? I understood they performed it the same way, under islamic law - you know, like a common islamic culture.

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Muslims did and still do many cultural things. But these things are not done because they're Muslims nor are they common among all Muslims.
You said islamic culture 'refers to things done by some Muslims, normally hundreds of years ago'
Please, give some examples.
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  #429  
Old 14.01.2016, 21:32
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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Short term would be to set an example - i.e. kick out the bad eggs asap!

Long term information, guidance, courses etc...
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
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  #430  
Old 14.01.2016, 21:35
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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So most Muslims cant speak Arabic but in breadth, I'd said there's the same commonality between Muslims as there are between Christians. And I really think that's nothing at all.
Then I would assume that is quite substantial commonality.

I'm a Christian, and I have met Christians from halfway around the world, while we don't even share the same language. And I find more often than not, we do share the same perspective on many things. So I assume the same occurs in Islam.

In Islam, you have regulations on diet, prayer rituals, and certainly ethical behavior, no? Doesn't it prescribe how many times to do things, at what time of day, and so forth?

But the question I or we all have of real interest: Are there no common and universal regulation or edict against all the violence we are seeing now throughout the world, with all its variations? Its desperately needed.
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  #431  
Old 14.01.2016, 21:43
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

Cultural aspects of sexual violence against women: is it an islamic/arabic specific issue?

Given the trend of the discussion and the bold statements made by some posters, let's look at it closely from an objective, data based argumentation.
To be clear on the topic: any refugee guilty of rape, sexual violence during the tragic event in Köln should be punished and sent back to his country. We are talking here about potentially thousands suspects in Germany among 1million refugees (that's 0.1% of those who came in during 2015).

Before, let me raise a couple of points:

Rape is unfortunately a phenomenon common across all human societies. Just recently an american tourist female was the victim of a gang rape followed by mutilation in Papua New Guinea. We can also mention the wave of rapes in India 1-2 years ago against tourists and not to mention violence on indian women.
In the USA, university campuses are faced with rape very often as a result of binge drinking. Korean and Japanese young women face sexual harassment in the metro (in Tokyo alone more than 2'000 reported last year) to the point that a female only wagon was introduced. These are non-arabic non muslim societies.

Getting now to the facts. Is Europe suddenly discovering rape and sexual assaults on 31 Dec 2015? Is it also a European phenomenon? To answer that there is an excellent study by the EU published in 2014 about violence against women in EU (it involved the interviewing of 42'000 women). There are several relevant results from that study, but the main point I would like to raise is the following: 33% of women in Europe aged 15 and more experienced physical/sexual violence by a parter or non-partner.
It's very interesting to look at the detailed results per country:
- Denmark: 52% of women aged 15 & more experienced physical/sexual violence by partner or non partner.
- Finland: 47%
- Sweden: 46%
- Netherlands: 45%
- France: 44%
- UK: 44%
- Latvia: 39%
- Germany: 35%

Map of results in the attachment. Full report and data can be obtained at the following EU website
Attached Thumbnails
arab-gang-assaults-germany-heatmap-vaw-allsubset-01-all-dvs_a01-01-yes-en-740.entitled.jpg  
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Last edited by MrVertigo; 14.01.2016 at 21:59.
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  #432  
Old 14.01.2016, 21:44
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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When they have to speak Arabic to perform Salah, that is a common language they share. 'That is not their language' - That's exactly the point. If there is no common islamic culture and it is not their language, why would they be speaking Arabic then?



But they all eat meat which has been slaughtered in accordance with islamic law. Do muslims worldwide they not share this ritual? Do the Chinese muslims perform this differently to the Arab muslims? I understood they performed it the same way, under islamic law - you know, like a common islamic culture.
They share a religion. What you're describing are facets of a religion

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Then I would assume that is quite substantial commonality.
I agree - there is commonality. Religious commonality. But that isn't cultural. Beyond bare religious practises, there's not a lot else. A fundamentalist catholic in El Salvador who believes abortion should be illegal even in cases of incest rape, a Danish protestant, a Nigerian Anglican...these people have little in common. And, in my opinion at least, the Nigerian Anglican would share more culturally with a Nigerian Muslim. The Danish protestant with a Danish atheist, the El Salvadorian with a Brazilian secularist.

There is no clash of civilisations here (which is where I think this is going). Witness the ISIL attack on Jakarta earlier today.
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  #433  
Old 14.01.2016, 22:13
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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They share a religion. What you're describing are facets of a religion
If they share a common religion are they also not sharing culture?
Culture - The ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society.
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  #434  
Old 14.01.2016, 22:22
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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If they share a common religion are they also not sharing culture?
Culture - The ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society.
No, I'm saying that Germans are culturally distinct from Mongolians who also eat sausages.
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  #435  
Old 14.01.2016, 22:27
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

So what about womans rights in Middle East?
Cultural or religous?
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  #436  
Old 14.01.2016, 22:28
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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So what about womans rights in Middle East?
Cultural or religous?
I'll take cultural for 10 points
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  #437  
Old 14.01.2016, 22:30
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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No, I'm saying that Germans are culturally distinct from Mongolians who also eat sausages.
Sorry that was my fault I edited my post to keep it compact
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  #438  
Old 14.01.2016, 22:31
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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If they share a common religion are they also not sharing culture?
Culture - The ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society.

So contrariwise there is, for example, no common English culture because there is no common English religion?
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  #439  
Old 14.01.2016, 22:32
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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Cultural aspects of sexual violence against women: is it an islamic/arabic specific issue?

Given the trend of the discussion and the bold statements made by some posters, let's look at it closely from an objective, data based argumentation.
To be clear on the topic: any refugee guilty of rape, sexual violence during the tragic event in Köln should be punished and sent back to his country. We are talking here about potentially thousands suspects in Germany among 1million refugees (that's 0.1% of those who came in during 2015).

Before, let me raise a couple of points:

Rape is unfortunately a phenomenon common across all human societies. Just recently an american tourist female was the victim of a gang rape followed by mutilation in Papua New Guinea. We can also mention the wave of rapes in India 1-2 years ago against tourists and not to mention violence on indian women.
In the USA, university campuses are faced with rape very often as a result of binge drinking. Korean and Japanese young women face sexual harassment in the metro (in Tokyo alone more than 2'000 reported last year) to the point that a female only wagon was introduced. These are non-arabic non muslim societies.

Getting now to the facts. Is Europe suddenly discovering rape and sexual assaults on 31 Dec 2015? Is it also a European phenomenon? To answer that there is an excellent study by the EU published in 2014 about violence against women in EU (it involved the interviewing of 42'000 women). There are several relevant results from that study, but the main point I would like to raise is the following: 33% of women in Europe aged 15 and more experienced physical/sexual violence by a parter or non-partner.
It's very interesting to look at the detailed results per country:
- Denmark: 52% of women aged 15 & more experienced physical/sexual violence by partner or non partner.
- Finland: 47%
- Sweden: 46%
- Netherlands: 45%
- France: 44%
- UK: 44%
- Latvia: 39%
- Germany: 35%

Map of results in the attachment. Full report and data can be obtained at the following EU website
Interesting data. The bit that needs adding to ensure comparison of like for like is the percentage of women who suffer sexual abuse in the middle Eastern countries themselves. Reuters have data here http://www.reuters.com/article/us-ar...9AB00I20131112
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  #440  
Old 14.01.2016, 22:39
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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I'll take cultural for 10 points
With a heavy dose of religion on the side
"Islam" is a religion, same as any other, it's how the subscribers interpret it that makes the difference. The problems in the ME and NA , in particular terrorism, abuse of women, how homosexuals, other religious and ethnic minorities are also abused...are a mix of several factors, cultural and religious of course play heavy roles. When the people from these regions move to EU in mass, they bring their culture, and it's problems, along with them. Which then becomes a task for the EU countries how to "re-educate" these people to respect EU norms. Can they do it? Do the people migrating even want to change and conform to their host countries rules? What if they don't? As mentioned many times here, you can't deport people back to a war zone...
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