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  #441  
Old 14.01.2016, 22:41
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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I'll take cultural for 10 points
How do you determine what is culture and what is religion?

It seems a common language (Arabic when reciting prayers), common food preparation technique (halal slaughter) is religous, not cultural. I assume because these instructions were given by the Koran?

So why are womens rights suddenly cultural? The way women should act and how men should treat them also come from the Koran?
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  #442  
Old 14.01.2016, 22:44
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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So what about womans rights in Middle East?
Cultural or religous?
So I was looking for a nice example but in fact I stumbled upon what I believe is incontrovertible proof of my point. From Human Rights Watch...

https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/01/19/...r-lebanons-law

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When Lebanon was part of the Ottoman Empire – before it was even a country – its religious groups were allowed to oversee the equivalent of family law. French colonizers upheld this system, and today Lebanon has 15 different codes – for Sunni, Shia, Druze, Catholic, Orthodox, Evangelical groups and others – governing divorce, child custody, and the financial rights of spouses during and after marriage. Each group is treated differently, but members of one group in particular – women – suffer discrimination across all religious groups.
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This pressing issue affects everyone in Lebanon and hurts women who are rich, poor, Muslim, Druze, or Christian.
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  #443  
Old 14.01.2016, 22:50
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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How do you determine what is culture and what is religion?

It seems a common language (Arabic when reciting prayers), common food preparation technique (halal slaughter) is religous, not cultural. I assume because these instructions were given by the Koran?

So why are womens rights suddenly cultural? The way women should act and how men should treat them also come from the Koran?

About "It seems a common language (Arabic when reciting prayers)" I would not call that a common language anymore than Catholics had Latin as a common language when services were conducted in Latin ( mostly dying out since the second Vatican council).
Nor would I describe English Catholics as having a common culture with French Catholics although there is little geographic separation?
Anybody like to comment.
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  #444  
Old 14.01.2016, 22:54
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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About "It seems a common language (Arabic when reciting prayers)" I would not call that a common language anymore than Catholics had Latin as a common language when services were conducted in Latin ( mostly dying out since the second Vatican council).
Nor would I describe English Catholics as having a common culture with French Catholics although there is little geographic separation?
Anybody like to comment.
I would argue against it even being a language at all (to them). Most Muslims recite Arabic by rote. They have no idea what it means and couldn't even ask for the bill in a restaurant in Arabic. To them, Arabic is simply a way to pray in a prescribed manner and has nothing to do with their culture at all
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  #445  
Old 14.01.2016, 22:54
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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How do you determine what is culture and what is religion?

It seems a common language (Arabic when reciting prayers), common food preparation technique (halal slaughter) is religous, not cultural. I assume because these instructions were given by the Koran?

So why are womens rights suddenly cultural? The way women should act and how men should treat them also come from the Koran?
The Bible says some crazy stuff too, and women's rights in Christian countries weren't always up to the standards that they are today. I wouldn't go too far down the road of blaming the religion per se, but rather how the people interpret the religion, and that starts going into more cultural factors. Altho yes, the culture and religion does factor onto each other and gets intertwined.
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  #446  
Old 14.01.2016, 22:55
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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Cultural aspects of sexual violence against women: is it an islamic/arabic specific issue?

Given the trend of the discussion and the bold statements made by some posters, let's look at it closely from an objective, data based argumentation.
To be clear on the topic: any refugee guilty of rape, sexual violence during the tragic event in Köln should be punished and sent back to his country. We are talking here about potentially thousands suspects in Germany among 1million refugees (that's 0.1% of those who came in during 2015).

Before, let me raise a couple of points:

Rape is unfortunately a phenomenon common across all human societies. Just recently an american tourist female was the victim of a gang rape followed by mutilation in Papua New Guinea. We can also mention the wave of rapes in India 1-2 years ago against tourists and not to mention violence on indian women.
In the USA, university campuses are faced with rape very often as a result of binge drinking. Korean and Japanese young women face sexual harassment in the metro (in Tokyo alone more than 2'000 reported last year) to the point that a female only wagon was introduced. These are non-arabic non muslim societies.

Getting now to the facts. Is Europe suddenly discovering rape and sexual assaults on 31 Dec 2015? Is it also a European phenomenon? To answer that there is an excellent study by the EU published in 2014 about violence against women in EU (it involved the interviewing of 42'000 women). There are several relevant results from that study, but the main point I would like to raise is the following: 33% of women in Europe aged 15 and more experienced physical/sexual violence by a parter or non-partner.
It's very interesting to look at the detailed results per country:
- Denmark: 52% of women aged 15 & more experienced physical/sexual violence by partner or non partner.
- Finland: 47%
- Sweden: 46%
- Netherlands: 45%
- France: 44%
- UK: 44%
- Latvia: 39%
- Germany: 35%

Map of results in the attachment. Full report and data can be obtained at the following EU website
Have in mind that women in the top of those countries are more likely to go to the police...i.e. the more equality a country has the more reports...
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  #447  
Old 14.01.2016, 22:56
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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The Bible says some crazy stuff too, and women's rights in Christian countries weren't always up to the standards that they are today. I wouldn't go too far down the road of blaming the religion per se, but rather how the people interpret the religion, and that starts going into more cultural factors. Altho yes, the culture and religion does factor onto each other and gets intertwined.
Women's rights too a nose dive in the Roman Empire when Christianity took over. The Enlightenment was the biggest step in women's rights/secularism/atheism. Correlation /= causation. Just because women enjoy more rights in countries that happen to be Christian, don't think it's Christianity that gets the credit.
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  #448  
Old 14.01.2016, 23:06
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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Have in mind that women in the top of those countries are more likely to go to the police...i.e. the more equality a country has the more reports...
That's correct, in many ME countries, women don't report the rape because they will be punished
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Victims often don't report rape, fearing they will be tried for adultery.
...but still women's safty and rights are much more guaranteed in EU than in the ME. That's obvious to most people.
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  #449  
Old 14.01.2016, 23:09
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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Women's rights too a nose dive in the Roman Empire when Christianity took over. The Enlightenment was the biggest step in women's rights/secularism/atheism. Correlation /= causation. Just because women enjoy more rights in countries that happen to be Christian, don't think it's Christianity that gets the credit.
Christianity went thru the dark ages and only after it was reformed did alot of the rights people enjoy now come to be. Islam is in desperate need of reforming, too many people take it too literally now and in the wrong ways. Read this if you haven't already, very well written:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-....html?ir=India
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  #450  
Old 14.01.2016, 23:31
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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Christianity went thru the dark ages and only after it was reformed did alot of the rights people enjoy now come to be. Islam is in desperate need of reforming, too many people take it too literally now and in the wrong ways. Read this if you haven't already, very well written:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-....html?ir=India
Nope. Protestantism is what gave rise to Christian fundamentalism. Look up Calvinism in apartheid South Africa for a start.
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  #451  
Old 15.01.2016, 03:13
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

"To be clear on the topic: any refugee guilty of rape, sexual violence during the tragic event in Köln should be punished and sent back to his country. We are talking here about potentially thousands suspects in Germany among 1million refugees (that's 0.1% of those who came in during 2015)."

No, we are talking about "potentially Thousands suspect in Cologne - NOT Germany" out of the estimated 1 Million, that has arrived in 2015.

The population of Germany is ca. 80 million people, who received ca. 1 Million refugees, so 1 refugee per 80 citizen.
Cologne has ca. 1 Million citizens, and assuming refugees are distributed evenly all over Germany, 1 refugee per 80 citizens, would mean, Cologne has received ca. 12.500 refugees. Out of these 12.500 refugees, ca. 1000 (According to eye witnesses) were present at Domplatte and molested ca. 550 women according to latest numbers. 1000 out of 12.500 is closer to 8% than the 0.1% you suggested. 8% is 80 times more than 0.1%
Keep in mind, the same happened in Stuttgart, Hamburg, Bielefeld, and Berlin too.

The media only writes about the most chocking cases. How was the Situation in Flensburg, Kassel, Nürnburg, Darmstadt, Frankfurt, Bremen, München ? Probably quite similar, but Köln made it to the madia first.
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  #452  
Old 15.01.2016, 07:04
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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Nope. Protestantism is what gave rise to Christian fundamentalism. Look up Calvinism in apartheid South Africa for a start.
Other than doing your best to appear like an Internet authority on religious history and culture (yeah, we have Wikipedia and Google too) while engaging in pointless semantics and purposefully trying to change the context of the discussion, what is your opinion on on the actual thread topic?
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  #453  
Old 15.01.2016, 08:21
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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Other than doing your best to appear like an Internet authority on religious history and culture (yeah, we have Wikipedia and Google too) while engaging in pointless semantics and purposefully trying to change the context of the discussion, what is your opinion on on the actual thread topic?
Your main sources are saying "obviously" and "clearly" an awful lot which I'm sure you learned at the University of the Daily Mail Comments Section. But seriously, I'd invite you to refrain from ad hominem and argue the point, not the person. You have said that Islam is a major, or even the cause of the actions of the migrants. I pointed to Lebanon where women have roughly the same experience whether they're Christian or Muslim, even with their respective religions allowed to set the rules. That's because its regional and has nothing to do with religion.

Now you comment. (That's how this works I think)
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  #454  
Old 15.01.2016, 08:49
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

Bavarian mayor buses refugees to Merkel.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35316913

"Jungle" camp at Calais being partially demolished.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35316419

And Turkey's sending refugees back to Syria.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35135810
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Old 15.01.2016, 08:53
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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Bavarian mayor buses refugees to Merkel.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35316913

"Jungle" camp at Calais being partially demolished.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35316419

And Turkey's sending refugees back to Syria.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35135810
I don't get it. Which bits would inhave missed by browsing BBC news?
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  #456  
Old 15.01.2016, 09:24
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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Clearly Germany set the wrong tone from the start, or lack of. The very first things many of them did upon entering Germany was illegal, which is entering without papers. But this was waived by Merkel. So the precedent they set was that rule of law is not so important in Germany.

Secondly, they were allowed to get away with a number of transgressions. Police officers are now admitting their superiors instructed them not to pursue asylum seekers, and minimize reporting. They got away with shoplifting, theft, fights, and even reports of other sex crimes. I suppose the message sent to them is that they can do whatever they want.

They really should have been screened upon entering the country, and briefed on what is expected of them. But that was foregone when Merkel swung the doors open.

As I recall, in other countries, there is a social contract signed by the applicant upon entering the country. It stipulates what is expected of them, and also lays out consequences for certain actions. This really needs to be done. This would bypass a lot of the legal hurdles Germany is running up against in addressing this problem. At the moment, for all the hard line German politicians are chattering to the media, they really are ineffective and helpless against this problem. Meanwhile, the extreme right wing will continue to surge with this problem. This is not good for anybody.
This has been made even in my country when we received Armenian refugees more than 100 of years ago. The press made public the conditions they agreed to respect, basically it was a pledge that they will be loyal and will respect the laws of the new country. Result? One of the most respected ethnic&cultural group (who also preserved their culture) from back home, until today.
What Germany did is beyond stupidity....
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  #457  
Old 15.01.2016, 10:17
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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It's very interesting to look at the detailed results per country:
- Denmark: 52% of women aged 15 & more experienced physical/sexual violence by partner or non partner.
- Finland: 47%
- Sweden: 46%
- Netherlands: 45%
- France: 44%
- UK: 44%
- Latvia: 39%
- Germany: 35%
Is there a presumption here that the rapes committed in those countries were committed by the native ethnicities of those countries?

But yes, rape is not unique to any culture.
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  #458  
Old 15.01.2016, 10:25
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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"Islam" is a religion, same as any other, it's how the subscribers interpret it that makes the difference.
I think it is different from other religions in its multiple aspects:
-It is a religion
-It is a social order
-It is a legal system
-It is a community
-It is a personal identity
-It is a political movement
-It is a revolutionary movement

What we find is that these are not all mutually inclusive. A person may pick up one or more of these as their motivation, without the others, and still consider themselves Muslim. So one Muslim's action can be vastly different from another. Yet one can't really say the other is not muslim, nor is not practising Islam.
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  #459  
Old 15.01.2016, 10:31
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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I think it is different from other religions in its multiple aspects:

-It is a social order
-It is a legal system
-It is a community
-It is a personal identity
-It is a political movement
-It is a revolutionary movement
No, Islam is none of those things, necessarily.
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Old 15.01.2016, 10:33
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Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

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No, Islam is none of those things, necessarily.
Not necessarily, but in how it is practiced, they are. Do we need to iterate through examples? And it does fit in the definition of a culture as well.
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