Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics
View Poll Results: Will they find that many were Syrian refugees?
Yes 44 40.74%
No 64 59.26%
Voters: 108. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #841  
Old 24.02.2016, 12:05
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 8,403
Groaned at 141 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 14,598 Times in 6,210 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

Quote:
View Post
Like i mentioned before, we are living in the 21st century and not the 3rd.
Nonetheless, lets take up your wall as a suggestion, or do you prefer "deadly force as a solution"? how would this wall look like? how long, how wide? With/without patrols? The problems arising from the restriction in transportation of goods and services? how about the costs?

Exactly, we are living in the 21st Century. We have technology and can use technology to create secure borders. We don't need to manually erect a pallisade of sharpened wooden sticks.

Quote:
View Post
On the other side of that wall, how about the people who are still there? where do you intend that they go?
The people on the other side of the wall are in another country.

Do you understand that concept?

What should the Polish cavalry have done about the Germans still in Germany in your opinion? How about nothing? Has it occurred to you that the world might be a better place if people didn't always feel they had to impress their solutions on other countries? Maybe as a German you should look at your history and understand that you have a weak point there. Repeating your mistakes is not making them any better.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #842  
Old 24.02.2016, 12:06
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Luzern
Posts: 144
Groaned at 16 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 69 Times in 44 Posts
bature is considered knowledgeablebature is considered knowledgeablebature is considered knowledgeable
Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

Quote:
View Post
To claim that just because there are large numbers of people, that laws should not be upheld goes against the principle of equal rights before the law.

If I as an individual enter a country without the correct documentation, then I get arested, imprisoned, deported etc. If some millions do the same, and then suddenly its ok, where are my equal rights? Would tax evaison be OK if we all started doing it?
If millions started evading taxes then it wouldn't be called tax evasion anymore, it'ld be called revolution; you seem to forget that a lot of American settlers did that to the english crown a long time ago.
A law being a law does not make it moral and it definitely does not make it defacto effective for dealing with a problem. Thats why laws can be changed and/or overturned.
Nonetheless the crux of the matter is with the enforcement of the said law; how do you enforce such laws against such a mass of people? For you to enforce the law against one person you need at least 2 people. Double as much enforcers as "enforcees". How then do you intend to enforce laws against thousands of refugees?
Reply With Quote
  #843  
Old 24.02.2016, 12:11
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Luzern
Posts: 144
Groaned at 16 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 69 Times in 44 Posts
bature is considered knowledgeablebature is considered knowledgeablebature is considered knowledgeable
Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

Quote:
View Post
Exactly, we are living in the 21st Century. We have technology and can use technology to create secure borders. We don't need to manually erect a pallisade of sharpened wooden sticks.
At least we are getting closer to a solution. Pray tell, how would modern technology in this situation solve this problem? and of course wooden sticks wouldn't be appropriate, think of the outrage from WCW and the other environmentalists.

Quote:
View Post
The people on the other side of the wall are in another country.

Do you understand that concept?
Oh okay now i get it; the solution to solving ones problems is just transfering those problems to someone else, genius if it were practicable at all.

Quote:
View Post
What should the Polish cavalry have done about the Germans still in Germany in your opinion? How about nothing? Has it occurred to you that the world might be a better place if people didn't always feel they had to impress their solutions on other countries? Maybe as a German you should look at your history and understand that you have a weak point there.
Oh the Germans weren't refugees, they were soldiers. I'm sure i must have already mentioned this before.
As a german i have a "weak point" here? Confusing, the germans attacked poland; the refugees at the borders aren't attacking anyone. You seem to be confusing soldiers from refugees; 2 very different sorts of people...
Reply With Quote
  #844  
Old 24.02.2016, 12:15
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 8,403
Groaned at 141 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 14,598 Times in 6,210 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

Quote:
View Post
If millions started evading taxes then it wouldn't be called tax evasion anymore, it'ld be called revolution; you seem to forget that a lot of American settlers did that a long time ago.
A law being a law does not make it moral and it definitely make it defacto effective for dealing with a problem. Thats why laws can be changed and/or overturned.
Nonetheless the crux of the matter is with the enforcement of the said law; how do you enforce such laws against such a mass of people? For you to enforce the law against one person you need at least 2 people. Double as much enforcers as "enforcees". How then do you intend to enforce laws against thousands of refugees?
Exactly, the American Revolution was a revolution. It dismantled one system and replaced it by another. When there is a revolution going on, you cannot pretend all is normal and that the rule of law is upheld. The American Revolution was a war. When a government cannot uphold the rule of law it loses its authority. The German government loses its legitimacy if it cannot uphold its own laws. If it randomly enforces laws on some people and not on others it is an unjust government and has no moral authority. This is precisely the situation we are in.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #845  
Old 24.02.2016, 12:18
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Luzern
Posts: 144
Groaned at 16 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 69 Times in 44 Posts
bature is considered knowledgeablebature is considered knowledgeablebature is considered knowledgeable
Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

Quote:
View Post
Exactly, the American Revolution was a revolution. It dismantled one system and replaced it by another. When there is a revolution going on, you cannot pretend all is normal and that the rule of law is upheld. The American Revolution was a war. When a government cannot uphold the rule of law it loses its authority. The German government loses its legitimacy if it cannot uphold its own laws. If it randomly enforces laws on some people and not on others it is an unjust government and has no moral authority. This is precisely the situation we are in.
The last time i looked the country of Germany was doing just fine i.e. social order etc etc. The people at the border are refugees, i repeat, refugees. No threat of revolution there, they are hungry and suffering and have no weapons. How should such people cause a revolution by themselves?
The only threat to the authority of the german government at this time is not from the refugees, but other germans within its ranks.
We seem to have come off topic here; i am still hoping for a practical solution to the situation at hand. Thanks in advance...
Reply With Quote
  #846  
Old 24.02.2016, 12:18
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 8,403
Groaned at 141 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 14,598 Times in 6,210 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

Quote:
View Post
Oh okay now i get it; the solution to solving ones problems is just transfering those problems to someone else, genius if it were practicable at all.
It's not transferring them, simply not importing them.

The whole reason we have borders and sovereign countries is so that each government ahs its own area in which to enforce its laws. If people start wiping away borders and thinking they need to do stuff in other countries, we get exactly what Germany did under Herr Spicklgruber, or France under Napoleon before him.

Quote:
View Post
Oh the Germans weren't refugees, they were soldiers. I'm sure i must have already mentioned this before.
If they had refused orders, they would have been killed, no?
Reply With Quote
  #847  
Old 24.02.2016, 12:20
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 8,403
Groaned at 141 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 14,598 Times in 6,210 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

Quote:
View Post
The last time i looked the country of Germany was doing just fine i.e. social order etc etc. The people at the border are refugees, i repeat, refugees. No threat of revolution there, they are hungry and suffering and have no weapons. How should such people cause a revolution by themselves?
But unable to uphold the same laws for all people.
Reply With Quote
  #848  
Old 24.02.2016, 12:21
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Luzern
Posts: 144
Groaned at 16 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 69 Times in 44 Posts
bature is considered knowledgeablebature is considered knowledgeablebature is considered knowledgeable
Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

Quote:
View Post
It's not transferring them, simply not importing them.

The whole reason we have borders and sovereign countries is so that each government ahs its own area in which to enforce its laws. If people start wiping away borders and thinking they need to do stuff in other countries, we get exactly what Germany did under Herr Spicklgruber, or France under Napoleon before him.
So according to your method of thought what would you call the EU? No borders there, A "Herr Spickgruber" utopia?
I repeat, refugees are not attacking any country, napoleon and the others definitely were.



Quote:
View Post
If they had refused orders, they would have been killed, no?
So is "killing" those who refuse orders your solution?
Reply With Quote
  #849  
Old 24.02.2016, 12:22
Loz1983's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,064
Groaned at 295 Times in 172 Posts
Thanked 5,180 Times in 1,850 Posts
Loz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

Quote:
View Post
i am still hoping for a practical solution to the situation at hand. Thanks in advance...
How about YOU give a solution about what you would do. Or do you think this open door policy is working out so well at the moment?
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Loz1983 for this useful post:
  #850  
Old 24.02.2016, 12:23
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Luzern
Posts: 144
Groaned at 16 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 69 Times in 44 Posts
bature is considered knowledgeablebature is considered knowledgeablebature is considered knowledgeable
Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

Quote:
View Post
How about YOU give a solution about what you would do. Or do you think this open door policy is working out so well at the moment?
Oh, i love the open door policy at the moment; i think it solves a whole lot more problems than its creating. If it was up to me, i would keep it up indefinitely...
Reply With Quote
  #851  
Old 24.02.2016, 12:25
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 8,403
Groaned at 141 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 14,598 Times in 6,210 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

Quote:
View Post
So is "killing" those who refuse orders your solution?

I didn't say that.

I repeat, so read slowly and try to understand.

You said, the guys in the Calais camp cannot go home because they will be killed.

I said the German tank crews could not have gone home because they would have been killed.
Reply With Quote
  #852  
Old 24.02.2016, 12:25
Loz1983's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,064
Groaned at 295 Times in 172 Posts
Thanked 5,180 Times in 1,850 Posts
Loz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

Quote:
View Post
Oh, i love the open door policy at the moment; i think it solves a whole lot more problems than its creating. If it was up to me, i would keep it up indefinitely...
Good that's been cleared up, I guess there's nothing further to discuss with you then.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Loz1983 for this useful post:
  #853  
Old 24.02.2016, 12:28
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Luzern
Posts: 144
Groaned at 16 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 69 Times in 44 Posts
bature is considered knowledgeablebature is considered knowledgeablebature is considered knowledgeable
Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

Quote:
View Post
I didn't say that.

I repeat, so read slowly and try to understand.

You said, the guys in the Calais camp cannot go home because they will be killed.

I said the German tank crews could not have gone home because they would have been killed.
The Germans were soldiers; the guys in calais are not. Big difference...
Reply With Quote
  #854  
Old 24.02.2016, 12:30
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Luzern
Posts: 144
Groaned at 16 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 69 Times in 44 Posts
bature is considered knowledgeablebature is considered knowledgeablebature is considered knowledgeable
Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

Quote:
View Post
Good that's been cleared up, I guess there's nothing further to discuss with you then.
Oh why not. My opinion is based on my knowledge; if i was to be informed i might just change my opinion. i change my opinion on lots of things all the time.
Like i said before, i am open to real and practicable solutions and you guys came up with this wall issue and the use of "deadly" force. I found those suggestions to be intriguing thats why i asked my questions.
Reply With Quote
  #855  
Old 24.02.2016, 12:33
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 8,403
Groaned at 141 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 14,598 Times in 6,210 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

Quote:
View Post
The Germans were soldiers; the guys in calais are not. Big difference...
And what is the effect of this difference?

You previously told me that no wall has ever been effective and the most long lasting and succesful empires of history (not one of which you managed to name) never raised a finger to secure their borders.

Are you now going to backpeddle and tell me that if you're defending against soldiers, walls may be effective after all?

Quote:
View Post
i change my opinion on lots of things all the time.
I'll believe that one whan I see it
Reply With Quote
  #856  
Old 24.02.2016, 12:43
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Misery-Courtion
Posts: 13,527
Groaned at 171 Times in 135 Posts
Thanked 9,659 Times in 5,513 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

bature, there is no solution. All that's going to happen is it will become a running "war" between the people smugglers and the various border agencies - the same as happens between the Mexican/US border. That is what the future of Europe will be as far as border control goes. Yes, there will be big queues at border crossings, at least at the outer extremities of the EU, maybe they may just hang on to free movement inside.

What you should be asking yourself is why all these people - instead of going through the proper asylum seeking channels, simply upped and left camps that they had already been in for some years? They were safe there, yet chose to try and reach Europe.

What everyone is trying very hard not to say is that WE DON'T WANT THEM HERE! Like it or not, that's the reality. IF the numbers had stayed to a trickle MAYBE the genuine asylum seekers would have made it through. But hundreds of thousands is an invasion - and that's what it feels like to many. Of course countries are going to defend their borders from the invaders in any way they can. And yes, it may come down to deadly force if that's the only way to get the message across. Most of the "refugees" are nothing of the sort; they are economic migrants and can easily go back to where they came from. They're simply using the current chaos to try and sneak in without going to the proper channels an economic migrant would have to take to get into Europe.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank Medea Fleecestealer for this useful post:
  #857  
Old 24.02.2016, 13:30
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Luzern
Posts: 144
Groaned at 16 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 69 Times in 44 Posts
bature is considered knowledgeablebature is considered knowledgeablebature is considered knowledgeable
Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

Quote:
View Post
And what is the effect of this difference?

You previously told me that no wall has ever been effective and the most long lasting and succesful empires of history (not one of which you managed to name) never raised a finger to secure their borders.

Are you now going to backpeddle and tell me that if you're defending against soldiers, walls may be effective after all?
hmm, you seem to have misunderstood what i wrote.
like i said previously, a country is allowed to defend itself and its borders against aggression from another state. The German soldiers were attacking Poland. Thats basically what i said, don't know what you understood.

Quote:
View Post
I'll believe that one whan I see it
oh no problem whatsoever, i'll definitely let you know if and when that happens
Reply With Quote
  #858  
Old 24.02.2016, 13:38
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Luzern
Posts: 144
Groaned at 16 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 69 Times in 44 Posts
bature is considered knowledgeablebature is considered knowledgeablebature is considered knowledgeable
Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

Quote:
View Post
What you should be asking yourself is why all these people - instead of going through the proper asylum seeking channels, simply upped and left camps that they had already been in for some years? They were safe there, yet chose to try and reach Europe.
Its very obvious that you have no idea what the conditions were/are like in those refugee camps you so easily claim were/are safe to live in. You have been most probably misinformed.

Quote:
View Post
What everyone is trying very hard not to say is that WE DON'T WANT THEM HERE! Like it or not, that's the reality.
Oh, thats very obvious, even though those who are saying such are still in the minority.

Quote:
View Post
IF the numbers had stayed to a trickle MAYBE the genuine asylum seekers would have made it through. But hundreds of thousands is an invasion - and that's what it feels like to many.
A better word here would be "migration" of people, after all they are only seeking a better life and have no wish to change the status quo.

Quote:
View Post
Of course countries are going to defend their borders from the invaders in any way they can. And yes, it may come down to deadly force if that's the only way to get the message across.
I seriously, seriously doubt this will ever happen. Why? Well because any logically thinking person knows that the use of force will only cause more problems than it solves, if you want i could list a few of such problems. Please do not let the propaganda fool you.

Quote:
View Post
Most of the "refugees" are nothing of the sort; they are economic migrants and can easily go back to where they came from. They're simply using the current chaos to try and sneak in without going to the proper channels an economic migrant would have to take to get into Europe.
Old chap, the statistics show us that in fact most of the refugees are in fact refugees and can't simply "easily go back to where they came from". Thats just the truth, look it up if you don't believe me...
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users groan at bature for this post:
  #859  
Old 24.02.2016, 13:58
Loz1983's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,064
Groaned at 295 Times in 172 Posts
Thanked 5,180 Times in 1,850 Posts
Loz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

Quote:
View Post
I seriously, seriously doubt this will ever happen. Why? Well because any logically thinking person knows that the use of force will only cause more problems than it solves, if you want i could list a few of such problems. Please do not let the propaganda fool you.
Seriously doubt? It's happening already!



Belgium suspends Schengen:

https://www.rt.com/news/333416-belgi...ngen-refugees/


Quote:
View Post
Old chap, the statistics show us that in fact most of the refugees are in fact refugees and can't simply "easily go back to where they came from". Thats just the truth, look it up if you don't believe me...
Look it up? Maybe I will, oh yes, turns out you're talking shit.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...risis_2015.png

Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Loz1983 for this useful post:
  #860  
Old 24.02.2016, 14:00
pilatus1's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Luzern
Posts: 916
Groaned at 118 Times in 76 Posts
Thanked 2,202 Times in 857 Posts
pilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Arab gang assaults in Germany

Quote:
View Post
Its very obvious that you have no idea what the conditions were/are like in those refugee camps you so easily claim were/are safe to live in. You have been most probably misinformed.
Why don't you explain to us what the conditions were like, and demonstrate how people who leave such camps are still considered 'refugees' by the word of law, after leaving said camps in search of greener pastures.

Quote:
View Post
A better word here would be "migration" of people, after all they are only seeking a better life and have no wish to change the status quo.
Tell that to the women who were assaulted in Köln. Or is it only the German authorities who wish to change the status quo, telling women to dress more conservatively and to keep all men at an arm's length or more?


Quote:
View Post
I seriously, seriously doubt this will ever happen. Why? Well because any logically thinking person knows that the use of force will only cause more problems than it solves, if you want i could list a few of such problems. Please do not let the propaganda fool you.
Yes, please list them. There is a reason that banks have vaults and security guards, also. Neither bank security nor national security function on just an honor system. But if you'd like, you could go dump your life savings out on the street with a post-it note saying 'please don't touch' and see what happens. Get back to us after...
Quote:
View Post
Old chap, the statistics show us that in fact most of the refugees are in fact refugees and can't simply "easily go back to where they came from". Thats just the truth, look it up if you don't believe me...
Like you've stated repeatedly, this is the 21st century and not the 3rd. We have things called buses, trains, planes, boats these days. They could easily return, by the same means they arrived.

oh no, I've just been trolled
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank pilatus1 for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
6 Spanish tourists gang raped in Acapulco. Nil International affairs/politics 0 06.02.2013 10:33
Rape and Assaults in Basel 17clarence Daily life 57 13.06.2012 11:14
British students gang-raped in St. Lucia PaddyG International affairs/politics 0 18.05.2011 14:54
Bloodhound Gang in Davos mark Daily life 2 09.02.2006 21:52


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 10:01.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0