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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #201  
Old 23.02.2016, 09:48
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Beeb doing the can Switzerland show UK the way with EU again.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-...endum-35615604

Cameron says it's a leap in the dark if the UK leaves. So what? It was a leap in the dark when we joined up.
That article was a very interesting read...
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  #202  
Old 23.02.2016, 09:48
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Can Switzerland show UK route to Brexit? Lesson to be learned here? EVERYTHING is negotiable.
Actually the article goes into details about how the EU refused to negotiate free movement with even with the UK and that it does not bode well for CH.

Also how Swiss companies have had to move production to EU countries even in the current circumstances and even more jobs would move if companies had to adapt to the bilaterals collapsing.

How the financial services agreement is on hold pending what happens after the Swiss break free movement.

So what did you read that made you conclude that EVERYTHING is negotiable.
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  #203  
Old 23.02.2016, 10:23
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

I don't think a compromise on the FMOP is realistic. It is one of the core 4 freedoms and has been a key part of the single market since the beginning.
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  #204  
Old 23.02.2016, 10:27
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

This is a chart of the times that a country is on the losing side of a vote in the Council of the EU:
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  #205  
Old 23.02.2016, 10:35
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Actually the article goes into details about how the EU refused to negotiate free movement with even with the UK and that it does not bode well for CH.

Also how Swiss companies have had to move production to EU countries even in the current circumstances and even more jobs would move if companies had to adapt to the bilaterals collapsing.

How the financial services agreement is on hold pending what happens after the Swiss break free movement.

So what did you read that made you conclude that EVERYTHING is negotiable.
That Switzerland has managed to negotiate many bilateral agreements with the EU despite not being a member. The UK is in a far stronger position so can do the same. All that doom and gloom about financial service agreements etc. has just been written in the BBC interest of balance.
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  #206  
Old 23.02.2016, 10:56
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

The bigger elephant in the room is that the EU has major structural problems.

Some people here seem to be of the persuasion that for CH, if the FMOP is shot dead and the bilaterals saved in their entirety, all will go on as before. Similarly, if the Brexit is averted, that is a blank cheque for Merkel and Junker to go on as before.

It isn't. If the EU's rudder is disabled and the iceberg is ahead, then fixing a deckchair or two isn't much to celebrate over.

UK and CH are not freak exceptions but the vanguard of a new wave of Euroscepticism that is rolling over many of the EU countries. Do Merkel and Junker think they can bully them all into submission?

Maybe the EU would be wiser to see these demands as a safety valve. Give CH and the UK some concessions to make them fall back into line on the other stuff rather than trying to hold them prisoner.
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  #207  
Old 23.02.2016, 10:57
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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This is a chart of the times that a country is on the losing side of a vote in the Council of the EU:
I am not impressed, it shows that 5 out of 6 countries are always losing the vote, maximum twice each year for the UK. The UK has gone from losing 3 votes in 5 years to 12 votes in 6 years. What does that prove: that we are out of step with all our partners? Or the UK has crappy ideas, and always wants an exclusion clause?

The basic rules have not changed much since the UK signed up to the Common Market in 1975 (?) but these rules have been refined, which hasn't met with every country's approval. Notice that Germany has been losing votes too, but France and Italy have agreed with almost everything.

I believe if you join a club you have to keep to the rules, or leave. Messing about and trying to achieve a special situation annoys all your friends! Which is what has happened.
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  #208  
Old 23.02.2016, 11:53
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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That Switzerland has managed to negotiate many bilateral agreements with the EU despite not being a member.
Yes, and the negotiations included accepting FMOP. If FMOP goes, so do the bilaterals.

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The UK is in a far stronger position so can do the same.
Based on what? No one even knows what the UK position will be if the Brexit vote passes. Why would they be offered common market access without FMOP? Cameron tried negotiating FMOP and was brushed off instantly.

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All that doom and gloom about financial service agreements etc. has just been written in the BBC interest of balance.
Really? So do you have any sources that say that the financial services agreements for Swiss banks to operate on an equal footing in the EU is actually going ahead?

Do you also think that the BBC is just shilling for the likes of Credit Suisse?
https://www.credit-suisse.com/ch/en/...ing-point.html

and the Swiss Bankers Association
http://www.swissbanking.org/en/mobil...arktzugang.htm
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  #209  
Old 23.02.2016, 12:11
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Based on what?
Based on the fact that the UK is the 5th biggest economy in the World. And the third biggest trade partner for Germany, who are the real power in Europe. The UK is too big to be ignored and it wouldn't be in the EU's interest to do so.
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  #210  
Old 23.02.2016, 12:17
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

This is what I dislike most about the House of Commons, the jeering, heckling and general rudeness.
The Speaker should be imposing better order, rather than trying to come up with funny quips of his own
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  #211  
Old 23.02.2016, 12:44
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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This is what I dislike most about the House of Commons, the jeering, heckling and general rudeness.
The Speaker should be imposing better order, rather than trying to come up with funny quips of his own
However it was very funny.

Corbyn: "I was at a socialist meeting of leaders and do you know what they said to me?"

Tory: "Who are you?"

Last edited by Fish Paste; 23.02.2016 at 12:45. Reason: It's not word for word, but you get the idea
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  #212  
Old 23.02.2016, 12:49
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

I listened to the whole debate, and Cameron made a very good case to stay in the EU.
That said, he's an excellent orator, and could probably make a silk purse out of a pigs (head) ear.

However I'm for the Brexit.
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  #213  
Old 23.02.2016, 13:14
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Based on the fact that the UK is the 5th biggest economy in the World. And the third biggest trade partner for Germany, who are the real power in Europe. The UK is too big to be ignored and it wouldn't be in the EU's interest to do so.
Oh no, Germany certainly wont ignore the UK relationship to the common market.

So Brexit happens, and suddenly UK firms are outside the common market vs German firms inside, with possibly thousands of German firms at a trade advantage with respect to their UK competitors where selling stuff in the EU is concerned. The bankers in Frankfurt will probably lead the charge, with the City suddenly less able to offer financial services as before.

So yeah, certainly not to be ignored, but certainly to be screwed over for whatever advantages the local companies can get.

Heck, the EU doesnt even ignore good ol`tiny brave CH, and as the CH business owner quoted in the article says, made him end up having to set up production facilities in the Netherlands to be competitive in the EU.
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  #214  
Old 23.02.2016, 13:18
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Oh no, Germany certainly wont ignore the UK relationship to the common market.

So Brexit happens, and suddenly UK firms are outside the common market vs German firms inside, with possibly thousands of German firms at a trade advantage with respect to their UK competitors where selling stuff in the EU is concerned. The bankers in Frankfurt will probably lead the charge, with the City suddenly less able to offer financial services as before.

So yeah, certainly not to be ignored, but certainly to be screwed over for whatever advantages the local companies can get.

Heck, the EU doesnt even ignore good ol`tiny brave CH, and as the CH business owner quoted in the article says, made him end up having to set up production facilities in the Netherlands to be competitive in the EU.
So the UK still produces stuff that it needs to sell?
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  #215  
Old 23.02.2016, 20:42
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Some interesting thoughts, applicable to Switzerland too.
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We need a third way



Yanis Varoufakis, former Greek finance minister, speaking at the launch of the Good Europe campaign.


“David Cameron came back with the mother of all euro-fudges to address…an electorate that is sick and tired of euro-fudges. So there is a delicious irony there... The Euroskeptics have a legitimate case. Those who...come to the conclusion that Britain is better off outside the European Union due to their commitment to the sovereignty of Parliament and so on, they have a very interesting case. [But] I disagree with them…because at the same time they want to be part of the single market. You cannot have a single market unless you have common industry standards. And you cannot have those common standards and a judiciary and a system of implementing those common standards unless you have pooled sovereignty.


“So in the referendum I would like to campaign for a third option, neither Brexit nor surrender to this euro-fudge of Cameron and his mates in the European Council.


“What we need to do is to explain to the average voter in this country…that either we’re going to allow the disintegration of the European Union which is already happening, give it a push to happen faster…or we’re going to have to create a democratic European Union.
“The third option that I would support is to stay in the European Union in order to fight tooth and nail against the anti-democratic institutions of the European Union.”
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  #216  
Old 23.02.2016, 22:31
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

The OUT Campaign is getting serious now!

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  #217  
Old 23.02.2016, 22:59
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The OUT Campaign is getting serious now!

I don't know whether the greater assault is on the eyes of the ears. ouch!
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  #218  
Old 24.02.2016, 01:08
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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So what? It was a leap in the dark when we joined up.
And a continuing stumble in the dark if we stay.

Anyway. I registered to vote, but I don't know which way I will vote yet.

While I would like to learn as much as possible to make an educated vote that would give the best result for the UK, part of me is already tempted to say 'fuсk it' vote for Brexit to give the UK and EU a kick up the arse and then see if the UK/EU collapses - watching safely from the outside.
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  #219  
Old 24.02.2016, 01:21
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Back then just as much as today is the UK a cornerstone of the problems of the EU, not the solution: The UK is making decades long dramas weather or not it should be in... and at the same time rejects any proposal for change in the fear of either having to pay something or being left out. You want in? Great. You want out? That's a pity but at least stop holding the others back.

Well it has been British policy for the last decades and one that I support fully!

https://vimeo.com/85914510
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  #220  
Old 24.02.2016, 03:22
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Th Brexit vote just gets weirder...

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/02...-backs-brexit/
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