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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #2661  
Old 27.06.2016, 14:36
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Rumours abound, unsubstantiated of course, that Corbyn actually voted Leave. It's based purely on his refusal to answer the direct question: "How did you vote in the referendum?".
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  #2662  
Old 27.06.2016, 14:41
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

There are some interesting points of view in the WSJ article below.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/brexit-a...ion-1466800383

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The EU took a gamble: that the Brits were bluffing and would never vote to leave. A more generous deal—perhaps aimed at allowing the U.K. more control over immigration, the top public concern in Britain—would probably have (just) stopped Brexit. But the absence of a deal sent a clear and crushing message: The EU isn’t interested in reforming, so it is past time to stop pretending otherwise.
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Deals negotiated through the EU always move at the pace dictated by the most reluctant country. Italy has threatened to derail a trade deal with Australia over a spat about exports of canned tomatoes; a trade deal with Canada was held up after a row about Romanian visas. Brexit wasn’t a call for a Little England. It was an attempt to escape from a Little Europe.
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  #2663  
Old 27.06.2016, 14:48
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Like any non-EU country, it only takes a financial contribution to the program to be part of it. Norway and Switzerland pay in, there are in. If Britain's leavers wanted a "pay as you use" kind of Europe, they'll get it. The prices are set by supply vs. demand, something the UK understands better than anybody else in Europe. No problem. Money will take care of it and we'll see if it is cheaper or more expensive. I don't know.
Sorry Switzerland is only a Partner Country in Erasmus; without FMOP there is no guarantee of visas for students.

Here is the official EU statement.

On 9 February 2014, the popular vote by the people and the cantons in favour of changing Switzerland's system of immigration called into question the principle of free movement of persons between the EU and Switzerland.
While implementing legislation for this popular vote will now have to be enacted by the Swiss Federal Council within three years, the referendum explicitly prevents the government from concluding any new international agreement contrary to this initiative. Hence, as an immediate consequence, the Federal Council is not in a position to sign the Protocol extending the EU-Swiss agreement on the free movement of persons to Croatia, which joined the Union on 1 July 2013 as new Member State, and is analysing the different implications.

The EU has always made clear that there is a close link between Swiss participation in Erasmus+ and the Protocol, as the programme is closely linked to the free movement of persons (exchange of researchers and students). Given the current circumstances, the EU and the Swiss authorities have agreed to suspend on-going negotiations on Swiss participation in Erasmus+ and took note of the impossibility of signing an agreement in time for the signing of contracts with beneficiaries selected under the 2014 calls for proposals.

Therefore, as foreseen in the Erasmus+ Regulation, until such an agreement is signed, Switzerland will not participate in Erasmus+ on an equal footing with Member States (i.e. as a "Programme Country") as initially envisaged, but will rather enjoy the same status as other third countries (i.e. as a "Partner Country").
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  #2664  
Old 27.06.2016, 14:57
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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....much more a consequence of UK Government policy than EU. Actually the EU have been pumping money into the UKs poorer regions - hence the sudden panic from the likes of Cornwall wondering where their investment cash is going to come from once the EU stops its support.
pumping?

did you mean pumping immigrants

anyway what was pumped into the economy by the eu probably wasnt enough though, in fact so not enough the eu got kicked out, why should poor people have to fight on two fronts, their own govt plus the eu. with the eu out expect them to fight whatever govt comes up.

If you look at immigration watch, England (excluding Scotland) has the second highest pop per sq/m. which may explain why Scotland isnt as effected by immigration and remain seems reasonable.

'93% of immigrants go to England so England is what matters in this context. England is the second most densely populated country in the EU with 417 people per square kilometre, after the Netherlands (with 500 people per square kilometre) and excluding islands such as Malta.'

What are you expecting the conservatives or England to do, pave everything over?
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  #2665  
Old 27.06.2016, 15:00
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Sorry Switzerland is only a Partner Country in Erasmus.
ok ok, I just know there are some students exchange with Europe here. Sorry for not being full proof legal administrative perfect.

My point stands: Erasmus stays open to the UK after Brexit if they pay for it. If they don't want it, well, so be it. Young Swiss students want to go to the US, not UK anyway. I already told the story of my German cousins who came back from the UK swearing never ever going back there after being treated as nazis in Nuremberg 1945, so they went to Ireland instead for a longer time and have been in love with Eire ever since.
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  #2666  
Old 27.06.2016, 15:04
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Like any non-EU country, it only takes a financial contribution to the program to be part of it. Norway and Switzerland pay in, there are in. If Britain's leavers wanted a "pay as you use" kind of Europe, they'll get it. The prices are set by supply vs. demand, something the UK understands better than anybody else in Europe. No problem. Money will take care of it and we'll see if it is cheaper or more expensive. I don't know.
Well, trippling the maximum fees that the gov did did not seem like a learning inviting gesture nor suggests that the new gov would actually want to spend on sending students abroad. Erasmus program and other foreign school programs seemed to be the way out for many. This is being compromised and if I was a student or planing to be a student in the UK, I would worry. The UK will get into the unbearable edu debts situation the US is, if they aren't there already. Paying a lot for schooling, having to buy mediocre, watered down edu modules doesn't really automatically translate to quality edu, no matter how blown the credentials or agreed terminology might look. If there was any way to push, it was by comparison and competition, not isolationary protest stance.

http://www.theguardian.com/education...d-survey-finds

My SIL did her doc Erasmus in Finland and Norway, so I know there are agreements. She was thrilled, for 3 semesters she learned both the local language and English. People from small nations need that linguistic boost, I wonder if the UK thinks they do not anymore.
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  #2667  
Old 27.06.2016, 15:06
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

MusicChick, you don't expect me to argue against your points, do you? We are both teachers, we know the reality and the whys of it, so I can only confirm.
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  #2668  
Old 27.06.2016, 15:08
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The ghost of Blair continues to loom large. I personally hope Corbyn defeats the malcontents and gets on with leading the party. Hundreds of thousands of people joined or rejoined Labour (myself included) because we liked Corbyn's vision of equality and fairness for all. To have that usurped by political skulduggery is frankly appalling. The press were reporting that Hilary Benn was sacked by Corbyn in a phone call, but what seems to have been forgotten is the fact that Benn was orchestrating a coup at the time.

Its depressing that at a time when the conservatives are at their most divided and incapable of governing, a core of Blairite MPs are desperate to sabotage their own party. Just like John Mann did by haranguing Ken Livingstone a week before the elections and plunging the party into turmoil.

Perhaps the best way forward would be for the Blairite contingent to form a breakaway party or better still join he LibDems. They clearly seem at odds with core Labour voters and have nothing but contempt for the Trade Unions (which overwhelming support Corbyn).
How dare John Mann go against Corbynite values of Antisemitism, supporting Terror while not having much to say about Brexit ?
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  #2669  
Old 27.06.2016, 15:16
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Yes, it's a national vote (and actually, it IS first past the post -- there is no purer form than a simple binary contest like this), but there are two points: it's not legally binding (as I've said half a dozen times), which allows MPs to consider whether they want to represent their electorates or not. That's all.

I can well see a number of politicians in London, Scotland and Northern Ireland with an eye on a looming P45 voting against Brexit.
All true.
If we take Switzerland as an example then we have seen the EU take rapid action against Switzerland even though there was just an internal Swiss referendum and no formal actions by the Swiss Govt..
Consequently there is a precedent that the EU will also act against UK soon!

There have been posts here about whether or not the EU will treat UK badly in future negotiations; we are looking at the wrong opponent.
Myself I believe the big risk for us comes from EU countries who are facing demands for their own exits and want to make that look as unattractive as possible.
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  #2670  
Old 27.06.2016, 15:23
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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MusicChick, you don't expect me to argue against your points, do you? We are both teachers, we know the reality and the whys of it, so I can only confirm.
Hahahah, indeed. It just looks to me as if they trippled tuition and zapped the possibility to outsource as a plain big brother stunt (not really believing in the innocent "people voted" since the referendum shouldn't have been suggested in the 1st place, it was a calculated manipulative mess).

It is all a pragma socio/linguistic problem: feeding xenophobia, populism while spreading nonsensical and pretended pc push, having double standards based on cultural marxism and intersectionalism, and all that for aggressive self promotion, power seazing. Same 'ol. Tovarisch crap with different terminology.
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  #2671  
Old 27.06.2016, 15:25
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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All true.
If we take Switzerland as an example then we have seen the EU take rapid action against Switzerland even though there was just an internal Swiss referendum and no formal actions by the Swiss Govt..
Consequently there is a precedent that the EU will also act against UK soon!

There have been posts here about whether or not the EU will treat UK badly in future negotiations; we are looking at the wrong opponent.
Myself I believe the big risk for us comes from EU countries who are facing demands for their own exits and want to make that look as unattractive as possible.
CH did take formal action to not allow Croatians in as part of FMoP. The EU responded to that.

There is no treating good or bad. Nations have trade interests and back them up with the leverage and power they can muster.

The UK will find out how much leverage it has soon enough.
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  #2672  
Old 27.06.2016, 15:31
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

""Ebbw Vale, left devastated when the steelworks closed, has had more European money poured into it than perhaps any other small town in Britain. But according to the figures Kelly heard, “we get out £7m a year from the EU and we put in £19m”. Anyway, he says, “it was time for a change”.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...vale?CMP=fb_gu

Yep, change is coming. Though it sounds like the EU cared more about them than the Tories or Labor ever did.

Tip for the EU: Instead of railway lines or training colleges, insist on money being used for basic math and statistics education.
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Old 27.06.2016, 15:37
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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All true.
If we take Switzerland as an example then we have seen the EU take rapid action against Switzerland even though there was just an internal Swiss referendum and no formal actions by the Swiss Govt..
Consequently there is a precedent that the EU will also act against UK soon!
Actually there has been a lot of talk and not much action against Switzerland (the Erasmus thing aside). FMP, trade, everything still working as if the vote had never happened. I do think the EU is indeed waiting for Switzerland to take the first move and then retailate in some way ... either that or kick the can down the road until everybody forgets what the whole disagreement was about.
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Old 27.06.2016, 15:38
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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""Ebbw Vale, left devastated when the steelworks closed, has had more European money poured into it than perhaps any other small town in Britain. But according to the figures Kelly heard, “we get out £7m a year from the EU and we put in £19m”. Anyway, he says, “it was time for a change”.
There's no such thing as "European Money". It's European Tax Payer's money, of which in recent years, British Tax Payers were the second biggest net contributors.

The Grauniad like to talk about it like it's some big happy pot of money that the EU distribute to people out of kindness.
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Old 27.06.2016, 15:43
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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There's no such thing as "European Money". It's European Tax Payer's money, of which in recent years, British Tax Payers were the second biggest net contributors.

The Grauniad like to talk about it like it's some big happy pot of money that the EU distribute to people out of kindness.
to be fair you're nitpicking about the term

That's actually a good example of the EU doing something positive when the British government failed Ebbw Vale
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Old 27.06.2016, 15:43
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Then came Einstein and showed that Newton was only approximately correct (Bloody Germans!).
Everyone also knows that Einstein was American, not German. He dropped the first atomic bomb on Germany to end the First World War.

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Joseph Lucas, now there was a man... he invented darkness.
You're wrong, yet again. Lucas invented the light bulb, which operates on the anti-darkness principle. But he may have invented darkness afterwards so that his light bulb invention would have a real-world application.
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Old 27.06.2016, 15:46
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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CH did take formal action to not allow Croatians in as part of FMoP. The EU responded to that.

There is no treating good or bad. Nations have trade interests and back them up with the leverage and power they can muster.

The UK will find out how much leverage it has soon enough.
True (well more like formal inaction ).
The risk for Brexit is indeed Nations have trade interests and back them up.
If, as an example, Italy believes they can sell more cars in the EU if they block UK car exports then they will.
Nothing anybody can do to stop them unless the UK could find a big enough carrot to offer to Italy.
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Old 27.06.2016, 15:49
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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There's no such thing as "European Money". It's European Tax Payer's money, of which in recent years, British Tax Payers were the second biggest net contributors.
Uhhh ... yes. And your point is?
Are you claiming BoJo is going to ease off on austerity, and rush off to develop Ebbw Vale? Kindness? The EU was responding to necessity, something the Tories have shown no sign of even since Cameron became PM. Is BoJo more leftist than Cameron? Is Farage?

And are you lying or just ignorant about being the second biggest contributors?http://www.statista.com/statistics/3...contributions/

Seems like in 2015, even though UK being the second biggest EU economy, made the third largest contribution.
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  #2679  
Old 27.06.2016, 15:53
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Bonus - DC will be gone early September, finally a new PM beckons. Let's hope Gideon follows.
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  #2680  
Old 27.06.2016, 15:54
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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True (well more like formal inaction ).
The risk for Brexit is indeed Nations have trade interests and back them up.
If, as an example, Italy believes they can sell more cars in the EU if they block UK car exports then they will.
Nothing anybody can do to stop them unless the UK could find a big enough carrot to offer to Italy.
It gets better:
From reddit-
" Here's one of the things that seems to have been ignored in the run-up to Brexit. No other government in the world has been elected on a mandate to get a trade deal with Britain. For most countries, it's not going to make any difference whether they get a trade deal in the next 2 or 20 years: it's purely an added bonus for them, rather than an absolute economic and political necessity as it is for Britain.
Of course, every country in the world is going to know this, and they'll know that time is on their side for any arrangement the UK wants to make." "

Any issues with Italy will look like sweetness and light in comparison.

i.e. Imagine what the Indians are thinking ... after 200 years of quasi-slavery, they might just need us more than we need them
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