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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #5061  
Old 05.09.2016, 17:11
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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-So it's like leaving the EU but not changing anything, right?
Looks like it, just like what would be accomplished with Brexit and joining the EEA.
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-I thought UK was managed by EU, not by Japan. It's good to know who's leading
This is about what their businesses need, nobody forces the UK to follow suit. Just know that the 1% of foreign-owned UK companies create 29% of domestic gross value added outside the financial sector according to your ONS. So don't complain if unemployment starts to rise if they leave.
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-Is it not a bit pedant, coming from Japan, to create that list instead of UK leaders?
I suggest you ask your leaders that, including the proponents of the Remain and Leave campaigns.
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  #5062  
Old 05.09.2016, 17:47
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Japan has a lot to lose if the momentum towards globalisation were to deteriorate. They are heavily invested in it. There is fear in Japan that Brexit is an omen of disintegration, which would hurt its interest. They are basically trying to weigh in for the status quo.

But I don't believe there is a centralised Japanese planning committee that can dictate all corporate activity in the UK. Each Japanese corporation decides its actions based on its own interests and rationales. These are business decisions, not a political one.

This is the Japanese government meddling on UK affairs, and probably trying to do the EU a favor. I don't think this is a factor for Theresa May to consider in lieu of invoking Article 50. Japan is in no position to be issuing ultimatums to the UK.
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  #5063  
Old 05.09.2016, 18:14
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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If only there was a set of standards already in place that would set conformity of quality for goods and services in a transparent way

British Standards
In the 40 years that UK belonged to the EU those British Standards relevant for export products were either superseded by European (EN) standards or changed to align with the EU standards.

From your link "Following the move on harmonisation of the standard in Europe, some British Standards are gradually superseded or replaced by the relevant European Standards (EN)."

For example a list of 55 BS superceded in 2010 here.

Edit; one of these Japanese demands was "maintenance of harmonisation of the regulations and standards between the UK and the
EU (including the maintenance of established frameworks of mutual recognition and
equivalence);"

Last edited by marton; 05.09.2016 at 18:27.
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  #5064  
Old 05.09.2016, 18:26
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Perhaps you did not notice that the value of the £ fell more than 10% since the Brexit vote, so those Japanese British built cars sold in Europe will make an even bigger profit after a 10% tariff than the status quo 3 months ago.

If Brexit is cancelled & the £ rises 15% those companies will be worse off........ Journalists usually miss the point, that what counts to companies is net PROFIT, nothing else is of much interest.
"those Japanese British built cars " often use parts imported from Europe (like Nissan diesel engines) which may well suffer a tariff on UK import so the profit calculation is not so simple as you portray and anyway assumes there will be no quota restrictions on auto imports to the EU.
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  #5065  
Old 05.09.2016, 18:41
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Before anybody can start negotiating for the UK they need to know what is the UK position; UK will be like a new country.
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How so? The UK doesn't start from scratch, it's not as if the UK was a lawless place at the moment or during those two years.
Because currently the UK has all its laws (like FMOP), Standards, etc. either from the EU or aligned with the EU.

One of the leave campaign promises was "We free our businesses from damaging EU laws and regulations"

So which laws and regulations will remain and which will no longer be in place, the UK negotiators will need to build from a firm legal foundation?
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  #5066  
Old 05.09.2016, 18:48
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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In the 40 years that UK belonged to the EU those British Standards relevant for export products were either superseded by European (EN) standards or changed to align with the EU standards.

From your link "Following the move on harmonisation of the standard in Europe, some British Standards are gradually superseded or replaced by the relevant European Standards (EN)."

For example a list of 55 BS superceded in 2010 here.

Edit; one of these Japanese demands was "maintenance of harmonisation of the regulations and standards between the UK and the
EU (including the maintenance of established frameworks of mutual recognition and
equivalence);"
Not to nitpick, but look at the 55 superceeded specs. These are all construction related. These are hardly export goods. A UK firm may well win a construction contract, outside of the UK, but they would have to build to the local spec anyway.

That the Japanese want harmonisation of standards, but have and use a different spec for fasteners (JIS) which is mechanically incompatible with SAE, DIN, and Imperial standards is a bit of a problem, both practically, and from a bargaining standpoint.
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  #5067  
Old 05.09.2016, 19:09
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Perhaps you did not notice that the value of the £ fell more than 10% since the Brexit vote, so those Japanese British built cars sold in Europe will make an even bigger profit after a 10% tariff than the status quo 3 months ago.
Except that cars are assembled not built, which means the costs have gone up for components imported from the EU. On top of this add tariffs and additional cost of being a third country such as certification for the EU market and your idea of a big profit will be wiped out.

But the big issue will be investment decisions - do you really want to have all the extra hassle when you can do it all somewhere else within the EU... Over time, my guess is that MNCs will invest more in EU operations to target the single market.
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  #5068  
Old 05.09.2016, 19:20
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Except that cars are assembled not built, which means the costs have gone up for components imported from the EU. On top of this add tariffs and additional cost of being a third country such as certification for the EU market and your idea of a big profit will be wiped out.

But the big issue will be investment decisions - do you really want to have all the extra hassle when you can do it all somewhere else within the EU... Over time, my guess is that MNCs will invest more in EU operations to target the single market.
Any car manufacture who ever believes they can make 'BIG' profits is delusional, you just have to look at the highly successful VW / AUDI / Porsche group & scratch your head why anybody invests in car manufacturing. GM was Bankrupt & Ford needed restructuring. It's rather like the Airline industry......
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  #5069  
Old 05.09.2016, 20:20
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Not to nitpick, but look at the 55 superceeded specs. These are all construction related. These are hardly export goods. A UK firm may well win a construction contract, outside of the UK, but they would have to build to the local spec anyway.

That the Japanese want harmonisation of standards, but have and use a different spec for fasteners (JIS) which is mechanically incompatible with SAE, DIN, and Imperial standards is a bit of a problem, both practically, and from a bargaining standpoint.
"These are all construction related." That was just a convenient example of harmonisation.

If you care to visit the BSI site and call up as an example the Standards for Autos you will see that most of the standards are either world (International Standards Organisation/ISO) BS/ISO standards or European (EN) BS/EN Standards; there are very few independent British Standards (BS). See picture below.

"the Japanese want harmonisation of standards" this is to simplify their export business to limit the number of product variations they have to build; of course they take the opposite approach at home simply to obstruct imports.

This is why it is important for UK to have control over which Standards are a mandatory part of FTAs.
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  #5070  
Old 05.09.2016, 20:28
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

David Davis gave a speech in Parliament today ""We want steadfast and successful EU after we depart and so as we proceed we will be guided by clear principles.

"First, a national consensus around the position, secondly we will always put national interest first, thirdly we will try to minimise uncertainty and fourth we will have left and put the sovereignty and supremacy of this parliament beyond doubt."

The Opposition labelled his speech as empty platitudes; well they would wouldn't they

Last edited by marton; 05.09.2016 at 22:59. Reason: darn spell checkers
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  #5071  
Old 05.09.2016, 20:38
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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This is the Japanese government meddling on UK affairs, and probably trying to do the EU a favor. I don't think this is a factor for Theresa May to consider in lieu of invoking Article 50. Japan is in no position to be issuing ultimatums to the UK.
Tough talk for someone with no investment or care about the livelihoods of thousands of British workers.
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  #5072  
Old 05.09.2016, 20:40
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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"the Japanese want harmonisation of standards" this is to simplify their export business to limit the number of product variations they have to build; of course they take the opposite approach at home simply to obstruct imports.

This is why it is important for UK to have control over which Standards are a mandatory part of FTAs.
Agreed,

There are only a few western mfrs. that bother to make JIS stuff, they can't make it at a competitive price, there is little domestic market, and the Japanese wouldn't buy it from them anyway.

I've spent enough time on the BS, ISO, and DIN sites, thanks, some of the standards I can recite in my sleep.
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  #5073  
Old 05.09.2016, 20:53
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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we have low level managers that earn much more than that.
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Japan is in no position to be issuing ultimatums to the UK.
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Tough talk for someone with no investment or care about the livelihoods of thousands of British workers.
And also apparently one of the salary elite
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  #5074  
Old 05.09.2016, 21:16
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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In the 40 years that UK belonged to the EU those British Standards relevant for export products were either superseded by European (EN) standards or changed to align with the EU standards.
This isn't going to change due to Brexit the UK isn't going to stop manufacturing CE compliant goods overnight either. This won't affect any trade agreement. Your point is moot.
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  #5075  
Old 05.09.2016, 21:22
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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This isn't going to change due to Brexit the UK isn't going to stop manufacturing CE compliant goods overnight either. This won't affect any trade agreement. Your point is moot.
And wont have influence in setting future CE standards either due to Brexit, but will have to follow them irrespective if wishing to keep selling stuff to the EU.

Manufacturers worldwide having to conform to the CE standard is a good example of how a large trading block can use its clout. Clout that the UK will be on the wrong side of.

Your point about British standards is moot.
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  #5076  
Old 05.09.2016, 21:44
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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This isn't going to change due to Brexit the UK isn't going to stop manufacturing CE compliant goods overnight either. This won't affect any trade agreement. Your point is moot.
The point is not "will the UK stop manufacturing CE compliant goods"; the point is "will the UK sign up to commit to updating goods in the future as CE standards change"?

If the UK does sign up then another leave campaign promise "We free our businesses from damaging EU laws and regulations" is destroyed.

If the UK does not sign up to updating goods as CE standards change then will potential FTA partners be interested to work with the UK?

As Kosti wrote; "the difference is the UK will no longer have any influence in setting these future CE standards"
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  #5077  
Old 05.09.2016, 21:46
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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And wont have influence in setting future CE standards either due to Brexit, but will have to follow them irrespective if wishing to keep selling stuff to the EU.

Manufacturers worldwide having to conform to the CE standard is a good example of how a large trading block can use its clout. Clout that the UK will be on the wrong side of.

Your point about British standards is moot.
Perhaps you should go back and read what marton originally wrote.
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  #5078  
Old 05.09.2016, 22:58
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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David Davis gave a speech in Parliament today ""We want steadfast and successful EU after we depart and so as we proceed we will be guided by clear principles.

"First, a national consensus around the position, secondly we will always put national interest first, thirdly we will try to minimise uncertainty and fourth we will have left and put the sovereignty and supremacy of this parliament beyond doubt."

The Opposition labelled his speech as empty platitudes; well they would wouldn't they
Newspapers are now reporting that he also said that it is very improbable that the UK will stay in the single market!

He wants to continue EU cooperation in the field of security, Interpol and such like.
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  #5079  
Old 05.09.2016, 23:39
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

An online petition calling for a rerun of the referendum was debated today by MPs in Westminster Hall.

Brexit: Ignoring Leave vote would be outrage MPs told

http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/I...5-40eca4b614c0

And Cambridge has now dropped out of the top three universities in the world university rankings for the first time in 12 years.

UK universities fall in world rankings amid Brexit concerns
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  #5080  
Old 06.09.2016, 00:53
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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And wont have influence in setting future CE standards either due to Brexit, but will have to follow them irrespective if wishing to keep selling stuff to the EU.

Manufacturers worldwide having to conform to the CE standard is a good example of how a large trading block can use its clout. Clout that the UK will be on the wrong side of.

Your point about British standards is moot.
Agreed.

Whilst some of you appear to be comparing CE and Japanese standards, the biggest switch I remember was in the standards for children's clothes and toys. I did an essay about this back in college for General Studies, which compared the British standards to those for Italian goods, and how they were adapted and adopted for the CE standards. Quite a few British standards had to be improved to meet the CE standard, whilst the majority of Italian standards for children's goods, particularly baby clothes, exceed the CE standard.


Going off slightly, I watched a tv report with Martin Lewis today where he talked about how interest rates on UK savings accounts have been decimated, and that the Nat West ISA rate has dropped to 0.01%. Santander 123 account is halving it's interest rates to 1.5% from November, and that will be the best rate around.


Where are the good news stories coming from Brexit that we were promised?
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