Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics
View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #5321  
Old 18.09.2016, 20:51
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 7,523
Groaned at 164 Times in 139 Posts
Thanked 8,550 Times in 4,685 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
So, these are the states that will be pushing hard for a good UK deal after Article 50. Article 50, they can't do anything about.
Um NO! These are exactly the States that will be pushing for a hard Brexit that keeps the FMOP intact and the opposite of a good UK deal!.

Visegrád 4 are the those States that want and need to keep FMOP which is exactly opposite to the Brexit demands. Sigh...!
Reply With Quote
  #5322  
Old 18.09.2016, 21:07
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 7,523
Groaned at 164 Times in 139 Posts
Thanked 8,550 Times in 4,685 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
Agreed in principle, but I take serious issue with this supposed tactic, when details are published in European media before even our own government have been advised.
It is not a tactic; it is a bluff and a clear demonstration that sadly our leaders are completely out of touch with the real world!

The UK will be negotiating with 27 EU countries, an EU Commission team and an EU Parliament team; not one of these have agreed to keep Brexit negotiations secret.

Should be titled "May's adventures in Wonderland";
Boris would be the Mad Hatter,
Merkel the Queen of Hearts,
David Davis is the Dormouse
Liam Fox the Mock Turtle,
May, of course, is Alice
Farage the Knave of Hearts
Juncker and Schulz are Tweedledee and Tweedledum.

Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank marton for this useful post:
  #5323  
Old 18.09.2016, 22:27
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 8,411
Groaned at 141 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 14,611 Times in 6,217 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
So, these are the states that will be pushing hard for a good UK deal after Article 50. Article 50, they can't do anything about.
These are states that potentially have a lot to lose so they will be seeking to save what they can save rather than seeking all out "told you so " vengeance.

In other words, they are most likely to seek compromises with the U.K.

As recent events have shown, they also don't mind sticking it up to Germany.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #5324  
Old 18.09.2016, 22:42
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 7,523
Groaned at 164 Times in 139 Posts
Thanked 8,550 Times in 4,685 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
These are states that potentially have a lot to lose so they will be seeking to save what they can save rather than seeking all out "told you so " vengeance.

In other words, they are most likely to seek compromises with the U.K.

As recent events have shown, they also don't mind sticking it up to Germany.
"In other words, they are most likely to seek compromises with the U.K."
No, they will be seeking full FMOP!
If they back off from this then they risk other EU and associated countries also seeking compromises; they have a longer term view than you
Reply With Quote
  #5325  
Old 18.09.2016, 22:44
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Vaud
Posts: 1,950
Groaned at 127 Times in 89 Posts
Thanked 3,510 Times in 1,339 Posts
Mikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
Um NO! These are exactly the States that will be pushing for a hard Brexit that keeps the FMOP intact and the opposite of a good UK deal!.

Visegrád 4 are the those States that want and need to keep FMOP which is exactly opposite to the Brexit demands. Sigh...!
I wouldn't read it in that way, vetoing deals would make things worse for them. You need to look at what people want. Poland for example want people to be able to come to the UK to work. So if there is a deal with free movement, hurray they will be happy. If there is an offer with some kind of limitation, visa type deal, then what do they gain by trying to block that if the alternative is no relationship at all and therefore even worse trading relationships for their citizens. Poland and the other three want what's best for them, which is what everyone wants in the end.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Mikers for this useful post:
  #5326  
Old 18.09.2016, 22:48
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 7,523
Groaned at 164 Times in 139 Posts
Thanked 8,550 Times in 4,685 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
I wouldn't read it in that way, vetoing deals would make things worse for them. You need to look at what people want. Poland for example want people to be able to come to the UK to work. So if there is a deal with free movement, hurray they will be happy. If there is an offer with some kind of limitation, visa type deal, then what do they gain by trying to block that if the alternative is no relationship at all and therefore even worse trading relationships for their citizens. Poland and the other three want what's best for them, which is what everyone wants in the end.
No, if they make a compromise with UK then they set a poor precedent for deals with other countries
Reply With Quote
  #5327  
Old 18.09.2016, 23:02
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Vaud
Posts: 1,950
Groaned at 127 Times in 89 Posts
Thanked 3,510 Times in 1,339 Posts
Mikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
No, if they make a compromise with UK then they set a poor precedent for deals with other countries
If they don't compromise they potentially lose access to their most lucrative market in the world for them people wise. Money wins over moral posturing normally.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Mikers for this useful post:
  #5328  
Old 18.09.2016, 23:24
Jim2007's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Kt. Bern
Posts: 2,094
Groaned at 34 Times in 32 Posts
Thanked 2,078 Times in 1,063 Posts
Jim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
If they don't compromise they potentially lose access to their most lucrative market in the world for them people wise. Money wins over moral posturing normally.
Well it obviously did not in the case of the U.K., so why would expect the others would do otherwise? No country has ever been refused entry to the EU for economic reasons, so why should they change now?

If the UK is unwilling to make some very big concessions on FMOP, Gibraltar and Norhern Ireland a deal is very unlikely I think.

Even an extension of the negotiation period can be vetoed by these 6.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Jim2007 for this useful post:
  #5329  
Old 18.09.2016, 23:27
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Vaud
Posts: 1,950
Groaned at 127 Times in 89 Posts
Thanked 3,510 Times in 1,339 Posts
Mikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
Well it obviously did not in the case of the U.K., so why would expect the others would do otherwise? No country has ever been refused entry to the EU for economic reasons, so why should they change now?

If the UK is unwilling to make some very big concessions on FMOP, Gibraltar and Norhern Ireland a deal is very unlikely I think.

Even an extension of the negotiation period can be vetoed by these 6.
Yes I think a deal with the single market is unlikely. So multiple deals will be made, the UK does not need to make concessions to Poland for example, we receive far more than we export to them people wise.
Reply With Quote
  #5330  
Old 18.09.2016, 23:41
Jim2007's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Kt. Bern
Posts: 2,094
Groaned at 34 Times in 32 Posts
Thanked 2,078 Times in 1,063 Posts
Jim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
If there is an offer with some kind of limitation, visa type deal, then what do they gain by trying to block that if the alternative is no relationship at all and therefore even worse trading relationships for their citizens. Poland and the other three want what's best for them, which is what everyone wants in the end.
Such a deal will not fly because it would be vetoed by Ireland as it would introduce an international border in Ireland, that is unless the UK agrees that NI remains nominal British and in a customs/FMOP union with the EU. Very unlikely I think and even if it did, no doubt Spain would expect the same for Gibraltar and of course Scotland would expect to get the same as NI....

Right now it is hard to see a proposal that would satisfy all the parties.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Jim2007 for this useful post:
  #5331  
Old 18.09.2016, 23:42
Jim2007's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Kt. Bern
Posts: 2,094
Groaned at 34 Times in 32 Posts
Thanked 2,078 Times in 1,063 Posts
Jim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
Yes I think a deal with the single market is unlikely. So multiple deals will be made, the UK does not need to make concessions to Poland for example, we receive far more than we export to them people wise.
You can't make individual deals with the member states. It's one deal or no deal.

Last edited by Jim2007; 18.09.2016 at 23:54.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Jim2007 for this useful post:
  #5332  
Old 18.09.2016, 23:54
Jim2007's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Kt. Bern
Posts: 2,094
Groaned at 34 Times in 32 Posts
Thanked 2,078 Times in 1,063 Posts
Jim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
The UK will be negotiating with 27 EU countries, an EU Commission team and an EU Parliament team; not one of these have agreed to keep Brexit negotiations secret.
Not alone that, but the Irish government will need to take sounds of the Irish people during the negotiations to see what is likely to be accepted in referendum. So expect to see Irish government ministers flying kites during the negotiations.... The changes of anything remaining secret for very long is not very high....
Reply With Quote
  #5333  
Old 19.09.2016, 00:07
Sbrinz's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Murten - Morat
Posts: 10,978
Groaned at 542 Times in 342 Posts
Thanked 10,579 Times in 5,411 Posts
Sbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

A humerous suggestion on TV business today: the suggestion that London (Inside the M25) forms a state & breaks away from UK, but continues with the EU. The rest of the country can then try and make a living without the tax income from the capital. "They voted for it, they can suffer"

In the meantime who will work on the farms after Brexit? There have been several nasty attacks on Eastern Europeans, and they might not want to go to UK now.
Reply With Quote
  #5334  
Old 19.09.2016, 00:14
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Vaud
Posts: 1,950
Groaned at 127 Times in 89 Posts
Thanked 3,510 Times in 1,339 Posts
Mikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
You can't make individual deals with the member states. It's one deal or no deal.
So the eu will break up then.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Mikers for this useful post:
  #5335  
Old 19.09.2016, 11:17
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 8,411
Groaned at 141 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 14,611 Times in 6,217 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
"In other words, they are most likely to seek compromises with the U.K."
No, they will be seeking full FMOP!
If they back off from this then they risk other EU and associated countries also seeking compromises; they have a longer term view than you
On the contrary.

People with a genuine interest seek a compromise.

People who don't care seek to make a pedagogic case out of it and seek to punish by demanding all or nothing knowing full well they risk getting nothing.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #5336  
Old 19.09.2016, 11:31
Phos's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ZRH
Posts: 7,177
Groaned at 462 Times in 350 Posts
Thanked 9,364 Times in 4,926 Posts
Phos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

At the end of the day, these are business arrangements, not some jilted lovers embittered by unrequited love.
Reply With Quote
  #5337  
Old 19.09.2016, 11:36
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 8,411
Groaned at 141 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 14,611 Times in 6,217 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post

In the meantime who will work on the farms after Brexit? There have been several nasty attacks on Eastern Europeans, and they might not want to go to UK now.
The remainers keep insisting we're all screwed.

If the genuinely believed that, they would believe all the unemployed London stockbrokers could pick vegetables on farms.

Or do they want us to believe that unemployment is going to shoot up but there won't be any unemployed?
Reply With Quote
  #5338  
Old 19.09.2016, 11:36
bigblue2's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Glarus
Posts: 6,153
Groaned at 309 Times in 249 Posts
Thanked 9,534 Times in 3,872 Posts
bigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
You can't make individual deals with the member states. It's one deal or no deal.

pretty scary that people don't know this!!!! and each state will have there own agenda and can veto, so who thinks the UK will get a good deal out of this??????
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank bigblue2 for this useful post:
  #5339  
Old 19.09.2016, 12:15
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 2,465
Groaned at 50 Times in 31 Posts
Thanked 2,234 Times in 1,228 Posts
rainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Thinking about this FMOP-thing.
I found it peculiar that while the Eastern European States want FMOP (so their people can move elsewhere), they didn't want any refugees (and esp. no Muslims), because they were "from a different culture and wouldn't fit in".

I do agree that EU vs. Syria (or elsewhere) is a different thing.
But if you think that through, you have to ask: what about Turkey?
What if Turkey was an EU-member state (something that a lot of people in Brussels and elsewhere have on their agenda)? Would Poland et.al. still insist on FMOP once millions of Turks started marching towards the EU and invariably end-up in Warsaw, Prague etc.pp.?

That is the real problem of the EU: all everybody can agree on is how to spend tax-payer money. There's no real common ground or shared political idea beyond that, besides a few trivialities.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank rainer_d for this useful post:
  #5340  
Old 19.09.2016, 12:24
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 8,411
Groaned at 141 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 14,611 Times in 6,217 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
Thinking about this FMOP-thing.
I found it peculiar that while the Eastern European States want FMOP (so their people can move elsewhere), they didn't want any refugees (and esp. no Muslims), because they were "from a different culture and wouldn't fit in".
This is exactly the problem.

The Visegrad states know full well that being in the EU is about giving some and taking some. Arrangements to their advantage are good. Arangements not to their advantage are to be resisted unless something else is being offered in return. This is basically what the Uk position has been for all these years too. Thus the Visegrad countries fundamentally understand why the UK wants the Brexit and are not going into denial over that but will rather seek to make the most of it. In a recent speech on the post Brexit situation Orbàn said that the real problem is not London but Brussels. I think when push comes to shove the UK will have it much easier negotiating with the Visegrad because they have the same thinking.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Latest Referendum, what will be consequences for EU (C permit and B permit) holders? expat2014 Permits/visas/government 3 11.02.2014 08:59
Importing vehicles and the VAT consequences in Switzerland from France BEFO Finance/banking/taxation 6 07.08.2013 15:11
The (Available in CH) Dog Food Review Thread meloncollie Pet corner 44 08.05.2012 20:15
Common-law marriage and consequences in CH Mishto Family matters/health 9 01.10.2011 22:03
Something for the Brits: M&S in CH mark Daily life 11 15.11.2007 12:18


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 18:41.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0