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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #5741  
Old 08.10.2016, 16:19
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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"The eu is a political project not an economy. "
The EU was created in the aftermath of the Second World War. The first steps were to foster economic cooperation: the idea being that countries that trade with one another become economically interdependent and so more likely to avoid conflict.

It is exactly your false view that it is a political project that caused this debacle!
Strange view. Of course there are, or can be, economic benefits, but the EU has always been fundamentally political. As you yourself say, the idea appeared in the aftermath of WW2, which was a cataclysmic failure of politics. Even the original Treaty of Rome mentions "ever closer union".

That said, I didn't mind the EEC when the emphasis had switched towards economic cooperation. Free trade and free movement is absolutely fine when it's a small group of economically homogenous nations, as it was in hte 70s. France, Germany Holland, Belgium, UK, Italy. Free movement worked because we could rub along together, economically.

Then came the 90s, with the notorious Jaques Delors and others, who flicked a switch in the collective brain, and began preaching the Word of Federalism. This is where the political ideology returned, with the vision of the European superstate, hoovering up the old Eastern bloc countries. Currency union is all about politics as well as economics.

With expansion to include much weaker economies, free movement began to fail, and to actually weaken the union. There is nothing better than Brexit to illustrate the dire consequences of turning the old Common Market into an ideological playground.
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  #5742  
Old 08.10.2016, 16:19
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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And from the next President of the Council of Europe "UK will be treated 'like Greece' and get tough deal during Brexit talks.
Joseph Muscat expects UK to be left with 'fair' but 'inferior deal' after negotiations"

And for mud slinging;
May is like some latter day Don Quixote tilting at windmills with a broken lance; fantasy of getting a better deal from the EU when there is not one single voice of support in Europe.
She has the strength of Margaret Thatcher but not the same common sense and practicality.

She appointed four people responsible for Brexit with no clear leader and so they spend most of their time fighting turf wars.
After a quarter year she has not shown the quality of leadership to bring them together to speak with a common voice.
Every time she speaks in public sterling crashes deeper down into the cellar.
An example of our leaders lack of a common Brexit strategy.

Liam Fox: EU nationals in UK one of 'main cards' in Brexit negotiations

Source

Or

All 3.6 million EU nationals 'can stay in the UK after Brexit'

Source


One might think it would be easy for some senior Tory person to stand up and tell us the truth?

Probably the truth is in the statement "The Home Office has learned that five in six EU migrants could not be legally deported"
which proves Liam Fox has no clue about the content of his portfolio? Hands up everyone surprised by this?

The problem our politicians have with Brexit negotiation is they no longer have the freedom to spout brainless comments instead their comments will be measured against reality.
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  #5743  
Old 08.10.2016, 16:25
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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.....
The EU was created in the aftermath of the Second World War. The first steps were to foster economic cooperation: the idea being that countries that trade with one another become economically interdependent and so more likely to avoid conflict.....!
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Strange view...
Strange view

My quote was copied directly from the EU "The EU in brief" web site here

You do not know much about the EU do you?
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  #5744  
Old 08.10.2016, 16:30
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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It is exactly your false view that it is a political project that caused this debacle!
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The European Union is a unique economic and political union
Hmmm?
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  #5745  
Old 08.10.2016, 16:31
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Actually I'm surprised on how clear she has been about it and also note I don't really think its a good thing. My principle belief is that democracy should occur so I got really annoyed with all the lying from both sides during the debate and am now annoyed that even though the people made this decision, which may be wrong, it should just go ahead and people are trying to find just anything they can to say it should all be stopped and reversed.

They have a plan - and the all important experts - without any doubt. you dont announce a fixed date for something to 60 million people unless you have some concrete activity in the background.
"the people made this decision" The people also made the decision to join the common market in June 1975. Please explain why it was OK to overturn that decision but not OK to try to overturn the Brexit decision?

Or is your view of democracy "it is only democracy when it supports my view"
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  #5746  
Old 08.10.2016, 16:33
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Hmmm?
You do not understand the difference between "a political project" and "a economic and political union"?

Go to the back of the class!
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  #5747  
Old 08.10.2016, 16:35
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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You do not understand the difference between "a political project" and "a economic and political union"?

Go to the back of the class!
No, I don't. Could you please explain?
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  #5748  
Old 08.10.2016, 16:36
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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"the people made this decision" The people also made the decision to join the common market in June 1975. Please explain why it was OK to overturn that decision but not OK to try to overturn the Brexit decision?

Or is your view of democracy "it is only democracy when it supports my view"
My view of democracy is executing the Democratic wishes of the people.
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  #5749  
Old 08.10.2016, 16:38
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Strange view

My quote was copied directly from the EU "The EU in brief" web site here

You do not know much about the EU do you?
You actually confirm my point, that the driving force behind the EU is, and always has been, fundamentally political. Your own quotation actually states: "....the idea being that countries that trade with one another become economically interdependent and so more likely to avoid conflict.." Thus, there is a political foundation. Economic cooperation is seen as a way to ensure political harmony. In practice, the two things are intertwined -- peace and prosperity, though arguments over "whose peace?" and "whose prosperity?" have never been resolved.
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  #5750  
Old 08.10.2016, 16:47
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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"the people made this decision" The people also made the decision to join the common market in June 1975. Please explain why it was OK to overturn that decision but not OK to try to overturn the Brexit decision?
It was right to challenge the 1975 referendum (in which I voted to stay in the EEC), because the thing we voted to join (a Common Market of 6 economically equal nations) had turned itself into a totally different entity -- a 28-nation constitutional monstrosity with a mass of laws that overruled our own parliament, and an inability to stop millions of people migrating to the UK from low-wage, ex-Soviet economies. A new mandate for membership was fully justified.

So I would totally accept and support your right to try to overturn the Brexit decision in around 40 years from now, if you feel that the decision had proved to be a bad one, and that the United States of Europe, Asia and Africa, or whatever it has become by then, is worth another shot.
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  #5751  
Old 08.10.2016, 17:04
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Economics always win over ranting doll throwing. Britain was a powerful economy and the world wanted to do business with it.
FTFY

The way the UK is going, 2yrs 5mths before leaving the EU, they'll end up being another Chinese colony like half of East Africa.
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  #5752  
Old 08.10.2016, 17:08
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The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH

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"the people made this decision" The people also made the decision to join the common market in June 1975. Please explain why it was OK to overturn that decision but not OK to try to overturn the Brexit decision?



Or is your view of democracy "it is only democracy when it supports my view"


Nonsense, the U.K. never had a vote to join the common market which happened in 1973. Ted Heath probably committed treason & should have been brought to account. The referendum was about remaining a member not joining
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  #5753  
Old 08.10.2016, 17:13
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I am not sure about that Marton, although I like the sentiment. I am obliged, although never do, to carry my Auslanderthingymajig permit and some identification. Because I am white, I would probably just be told off for not having it.
I don't think that's true. You are obliged to have one, but not to have it with you. Although as a consequenc of not having it with you you may be taken to the police station for identification, but there will not be a fine.

Edit:
K-Tip says the same.

Last edited by Urs Max; 08.10.2016 at 18:52. Reason: Adding reference
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  #5754  
Old 08.10.2016, 17:31
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I don't think that's true. You are obliged to have one, but not to have it with you. Although as a consequenc of not having it with you you may be taken to the police station for identification, but there will not be a fine.
When I came here over twenty years ago the British Embassy held introduction sessions where I was also informed you are obliged to have id., but not obliged to have it with you.
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  #5755  
Old 08.10.2016, 21:41
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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When I came here over twenty years ago the British Embassy held introduction sessions where I was also informed you are obliged to have id., but not obliged to have it with you.
But you are living in the Schengen Area and you are obliged be able to provide prove of identity and that you are legally entitle to be in the Area...

Having had the experience of having to get off the train in Liestal a few years ago because my dear Swiss friend did not have his ID card and hang around while they made calls to his geminade, I think it is worth carrying.
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  #5756  
Old 08.10.2016, 21:54
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Probably the truth is in the statement "The Home Office has learned that five in six EU migrants could not be legally deported"
which proves Liam Fox has no clue about the content of his portfolio? Hands up everyone surprised by this?
They must have found this gem as I did today:


Quote:
2 Republic of Ireland not a foreign country.

(1)It is hereby declared that, notwithstanding that the Republic of Ireland is not part of His Majesty’s dominions, the Republic of Ireland is not a foreign country for the purposes of any law in force in any part of the United Kingdom or in any colony, protectorate or United Kingdom trust territory, whether by virtue of a rule of law or of an Act of Parliament or any other enactment or instrument whatsoever, whether passed or made before or after the passing of this Act, and references in any Act of Parliament, other enactment or instrument whatsoever, whether passed or made before or after the passing of this Act, to foreigners, aliens, foreign countries, and foreign or foreign-built ships or aircraft shall be construed accordingly.
Wonder if the EU will demand that this be repealed......
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  #5757  
Old 08.10.2016, 22:16
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Apparently, Japan has an opinion of its own about Brexit:

http://www.mofa.go.jp/files/000185466.pdf

I am so looking forward to both parties taking and quoting from it to fit their own views and make Japan a pro-Brexit or a pro-Remain depending on their own interests. But it is not difficult to read between the lines or even *in* the lines what side they are on. The German press qualifies this message from the Japanese government as "brutal". They have a point.

Last edited by Faltrad; 08.10.2016 at 22:45.
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  #5758  
Old 08.10.2016, 23:06
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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But you are living in the Schengen Area and you are obliged be able to provide prove of identity and that you are legally entitle to be in the Area...

Having had the experience of having to get off the train in Liestal a few years ago because my dear Swiss friend did not have his ID card and hang around while they made calls to his geminade, I think it is worth carrying.
The original question was "are you legally bound to carry proof of identity in Switzerland" the answer is you are not - but as you yourself found it can be a pain in the arse if you do not have id. with you.

From the EU website; "Even if you don't need a passport for border checks within the Schengen area , it is still always highly recommended to take a passport or ID card with you, so you can prove your identity if needed (if stopped by police, boarding a plane, etc.)."
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  #5759  
Old 09.10.2016, 11:36
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Not only racist crimes increased - The number of homophobic attacks more than doubled in the three months after the Brexit vote, with toxicity fostered by the EU referendum debate spreading beyond race and religion, new figures suggest.

Source
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  #5760  
Old 09.10.2016, 21:30
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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An example of our leaders lack of a common Brexit strategy.

Liam Fox: EU nationals in UK one of 'main cards' in Brexit negotiations

Source

Or

All 3.6 million EU nationals 'can stay in the UK after Brexit'

Source


One might think it would be easy for some senior Tory person to stand up and tell us the truth?

Probably the truth is in the statement "The Home Office has learned that five in six EU migrants could not be legally deported"
which proves Liam Fox has no clue about the content of his portfolio? Hands up everyone surprised by this?

The problem our politicians have with Brexit negotiation is they no longer have the freedom to spout brainless comments instead their comments will be measured against reality.
Sadly May and her circus of "turf fighters" are unable to define and stay with a policy for more than five minutes.

The latest PR disaster is "The government has abandoned plans to force businesses to reveal how many foreign staff they employ, following widespread condemnation and accusations that the policy was akin to tattooing workers “with numbers on their forearms”."

Source

Do we really have no one better than this bunch of clowns to negotiate Brexit for us?

Maybe it is a clever plan to lull the EU into believing the negotiators are idiots? Anyone remember Black Adder?
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