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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #5761  
Old 09.10.2016, 22:31
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

And now!

The Northern Ireland secretary, James Brokenshire, has told the Guardian that London and Dublin will work to strengthen Ireland’s external borders in order to combat illegal migration into the UK once it leaves the European Union.

This policy would make a mockery of claims by the Brexit camp that leaving the EU would enable Britain to “take back control of its borders”.

The measures will be aimed primarily at non-Europeans seeking entry into the Common Travel Area (UK and Ireland), the joint Anglo-Irish border procedures will not be able to stem the arrival of EU nationals, as they will retain the right to free movement to live and work in the Irish Republic-

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So EU nationals will be able to pour into UK via Ireland?
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  #5762  
Old 09.10.2016, 22:46
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Not necessarily. EU nationals would still have to pass UK immigration when they fly or sail from Ireland. It's the border between north and south where the problems will be, given that Ireland doesn't seem to want to reintroduce border controls there. But even if they do try and "flood" in via Northern Ireland without being able to state a valid reason for why they're flying/sailing to the rest of the UK, they'd be stuck there.
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  #5763  
Old 09.10.2016, 23:04
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Not necessarily. EU nationals would still have to pass UK immigration when they fly or sail from Ireland. It's the border between north and south where the problems will be, given that Ireland doesn't seem to want to reintroduce border controls there. But even if they do try and "flood" in via Northern Ireland without being able to state a valid reason for why they're flying/sailing to the rest of the UK, they'd be stuck there.
The UK Border Force does not carry out routine immigration checks on travellers (regardless of nationality) arriving in the mainland UK from another part of the CTA.
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  #5764  
Old 09.10.2016, 23:11
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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EU nationals would still have to pass UK immigration when they fly or sail from Ireland.
I doubt the idea of having their passports checked before they go from one part of the UK to another will fly with the Unionists! And as the Irish Foreign Minster pointed out: “I caution that this will be a decision not just by the UK or Irish governments but ultimately also by the 27 EU states."
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  #5765  
Old 09.10.2016, 23:35
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The UK Border Force does not carry out routine immigration checks on travellers (regardless of nationality) arriving in the mainland UK from another part of the CTA.
Not yet, no. But is there anything that says they can't set up a similar arrangement to Calais where they do? From the link:

"Britain is seeking to shift the frontline of immigration controls to Ireland’s ports and airports to avoid having to introduce a “hard border” between north and south after the UK leaves the European Union, the Guardian has learned."

This is exactly what they do at Calais.

Maybe the CTA will have to be amended as well. Surely some checks can and should be introduced without causing major transit problems.

Alternate plan: move those of the population of Northern Ireland who want to stay in the UK over the water and give the land to Ireland. Ireland becomes "whole", Unionists get to stay in the Union (assuming it still exists after Scotland leaves) - everyone's happy.
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  #5766  
Old 10.10.2016, 00:37
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Not yet, no. But is there anything that says they can't set up a similar arrangement to Calais where they do? From the link:

"Britain is seeking to shift the frontline of immigration controls to Ireland’s ports and airports to avoid having to introduce a “hard border” between north and south after the UK leaves the European Union, the Guardian has learned."

This is exactly what they do at Calais.

Maybe the CTA will have to be amended as well. Surely some checks can and should be introduced without causing major transit problems.

Alternate plan: move those of the population of Northern Ireland who want to stay in the UK over the water and give the land to Ireland. Ireland becomes "whole", Unionists get to stay in the Union (assuming it still exists after Scotland leaves) - everyone's happy.
The Irish Govt. will not be happy; they do not want to pick up the bill for N. Ireland grants and subsidies, currently over £ 20 billion annually.
This is why they have been saying for many years they do not want the North
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  #5767  
Old 10.10.2016, 03:38
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The Irish Govt. will not be happy; they do not want to pick up the bill for N. Ireland grants and subsidies, currently over £ 20 billion annually.
This is why they have been saying for many years they do not want the North
Irish diplomats have been floating a different proposal in Brussels: NI to remain nominally British (= carry the cost), but enters into a customs union with Ireland. No need to address FMOP as they are all entitled to Irish passports in any case.

That way the republicans get to pretend they have a united Ireland, the unionists get to pretend they still have an empire and the Irish avoid the embarrassment of having to reject them. The only flaw is that the rest of th U.K. has to pay for it, otherwise sure isn't it a great plan!
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  #5768  
Old 10.10.2016, 10:55
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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"Britain is seeking to shift the frontline of immigration controls to Ireland’s ports and airports to avoid having to introduce a “hard border” between north and south after the UK leaves the European Union, the Guardian has learned."

This is exactly what they do at Calais.
D
Do the Britts really expect the Irish to consider Calais as an example to follow on their own territory?
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  #5769  
Old 10.10.2016, 11:06
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

As far as installing British personnel to administer passport control for the UK yes. Whether a camp such as the Jungle would ever build up in Ireland is another question and one that will only be answered once the UK finally leaves the EU.
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  #5770  
Old 10.10.2016, 13:04
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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As far as installing British personnel to administer passport control for the UK yes. Whether a camp such as the Jungle would ever build up in Ireland is another question and one that will only be answered once the UK finally leaves the EU.
The issue is not illegal migrants who are not allowed into Ireland anyway.

The issue is EU citizens who can enter Ireland freely and then could cross to mainland UK without any further formalities.

It is a different situation from Calais where, presumably sooner or later, EU citizens will face stronger controls.
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  #5771  
Old 10.10.2016, 13:49
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

The UK has got to bite the bullet and reintroduce border controls in Northern Ireland then. Frankly I can't see why Ireland should get special treatment. Yes, they were part of the UK for a long while, but are not now. Treat them as every other country in the EU and scrap CTA. It's a good opportunity to see what works and what doesn't for when/if Scotland also gains independence and rejoins the EU as that will need border controls too.
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  #5772  
Old 10.10.2016, 14:27
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Do the Britts really expect the Irish to consider Calais as an example to follow on their own territory?
Do the Irish consider Calais an example worthy emulating? Or will they do what they can to retain the open border, if need be by creating an exception?
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  #5773  
Old 10.10.2016, 14:33
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Tory MP accuses government of 'tyranny' over Brexit strategy.

Stephen Phillips, who voted to leave in the referendum, said: “I and many others did not exercise our vote in the referendum so as to restore the sovereignty of this parliament only to see what we regarded as the tyranny of the European Union replaced by that of a government that apparently wishes to ignore the views of the house on the most important issue facing the nation.”

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  #5774  
Old 10.10.2016, 14:34
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The Irish Govt. will not be happy; they do not want to pick up the bill for N. Ireland grants and subsidies, currently over £ 20 billion annually.
This is why they have been saying for many years they do not want the North
The Irish can well afford to say they do not want the North as long as their chances of getting it are pretty slim anyway.

But if that reality were to change, I'm pretty sure public opinion in the Republic wouldn't be objecting too strongly.

I'm sure there would be many arguing that the costs would be well worth it.

I guess maybe even the Unionists could be placated if the Repubic were to write some special protection such as elements of self rule into their constitution (in the same way various other European nations have such arrangements for minorities).
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  #5775  
Old 10.10.2016, 14:50
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Honestly don't get this one. Having an open border for people is not a problem between EU and non-EU states - Sweden and Norway had one for years before both joined Schengen.

What is unavoidable however is a customs border between the North and South.
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  #5776  
Old 10.10.2016, 14:53
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Honestly don't get this one. Having an open border for people is not a problem between EU and non-EU states - Sweden and Norway had one for years before both joined Schengen.

What is unavoidable however is a customs border between the North and South.
Which is basically what Switzerland has.
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  #5777  
Old 10.10.2016, 15:47
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Honestly don't get this one. Having an open border for people is not a problem between EU and non-EU states - Sweden and Norway had one for years before both joined Schengen.

What is unavoidable however is a customs border between the North and South.
UK and Ireland are both not in Schengen so today there is no open border for people between these countries and the other EU countries.

Both countries are in the Customs union so there is no Customs border between these countries and the other EU countries today.
In Dover they do control incoming vehicles for illegal imports but oddly there is no red door to drive to if you do have something you want to declare!
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Old 10.10.2016, 15:53
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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but oddly there is no red door to drive to if you do have something you want to declare!
You would need to declare those goods when entering the EU, France is in the EU so clearly no need to declare at that border.
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  #5779  
Old 10.10.2016, 18:50
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The UK has got to bite the bullet and reintroduce border controls in Northern Ireland then.
And that would be a catalyst for them to invoke the GFA and start up the whole tourist thing again.
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  #5780  
Old 10.10.2016, 18:57
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The Irish can well afford to say they do not want the North as long as their chances of getting it are pretty slim anyway.
With the GFA, it is only a matter to time before they vote themselves out of the UK! 20 years maybe.

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But if that reality were to change, I'm pretty sure public opinion in the Republic wouldn't be objecting too strongly.

I'm sure there would be many arguing that the costs would be well worth it.
The most recent polls suggest that only about 30% would be willing to accept NI.
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