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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #5841  
Old 14.10.2016, 12:38
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Fixed that for you.

My real question is "why was it a "non binding" referendum"? I do not know but it certainly allows for the possibility of a reversal.
It also maybe complicates the legal situation. If there is no Parliament vote on invoking Art. 50 then does a non binding referendum provide a sufficient legal basis to invoke?
In any state the sovereign holds the ultimate power, he alone can decide what laws are to be implemented, voided, changed, etc, (assuming in the first place the rule of law does exist in said state) without asking someone else.

The UK is not a democracy, it's a constitutional monarchy. In a monarchy the monarch (the Queen in the case of the UK) is the sovereign. As a consequence British nationals aren't citizens but rather British subjects. As long as the nationals are the subject of some superior power they can not be the sovereign, and thus can not order that some law be created/changed/nixed or action be taken merely by deciding so. There may be variations to this in case of parliamentary monarchies, but being monarchies I think this also applies to them.

Probably not even the parliament could have made the vote binding because the British monarch has the last say in many cases, and certainly in just about everything affecting foreign relations.
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  #5842  
Old 14.10.2016, 12:57
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Are there any surveys out there about how worried people were about immigration before the referendum campaign began?
This provides context (screenshot from this page):
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  #5843  
Old 14.10.2016, 13:11
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I think people are avoiding the really important question concerning Brexit.

Is Marmite available in Switzerland?
Cenovis tastes even better
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  #5844  
Old 14.10.2016, 13:22
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I think people are avoiding the really important question concerning Brexit.

Is Marmite available in Switzerland?
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Cenovis tastes even better
They are both as equally so it's irrelevant really.
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  #5845  
Old 14.10.2016, 17:01
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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In any state the sovereign holds the ultimate power, he alone can decide what laws are to be implemented, voided, changed, etc, (assuming in the first place the rule of law does exist in said state) without asking someone else.

The UK is not a democracy, it's a constitutional monarchy. In a monarchy the monarch (the Queen in the case of the UK) is the sovereign. As a consequence British nationals aren't citizens but rather British subjects. As long as the nationals are the subject of some superior power they can not be the sovereign, and thus can not order that some law be created/changed/nixed or action be taken merely by deciding so. There may be variations to this in case of parliamentary monarchies, but being monarchies I think this also applies to them.

Probably not even the parliament could have made the vote binding because the British monarch has the last say in many cases, and certainly in just about everything affecting foreign relations.
Interesting developments today- sent to me by a UK friend:

Really interesting court case and day 1 of "The Royal Prerogative"

It basically boils down to whether a minister -in this case Amino 1 - can remove rights established by an act of parliament.

It raises questions of "fundamental constitutional importance about the limits of the power of the executive"

Pannick, QC for the challenger, said " this court is not concerned with the political wisdom of withdrawal" "The government was wrong to suggest the legal challenge was merely camouflage to prevent Brexit"

Pannick's client the court was advised had again received threats, abuse and insults.

A further QC - representing the people
Argued" the constitution of our parliamentary democracy, unwritten as it is , is predicated on the sovereignty of parliament and the courts working as arbiter. Notification of withdrawal leads to the removal of the rights of UK citizens.
Chambers QC argued that the referendum did not replace the UK system of parliamentary democracy"
If the government triggered A50 it would be setting itself up as "de facto legislature"
This is a case about what is legally required, not what is legally expedient.


Love both Marmite and Cenovis- full of vitamin B12 - wonderful. Mind you, you don't like absinthe either, so ...
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  #5846  
Old 14.10.2016, 17:32
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Oh I know, many here don't respect or like experts, but I'd urge you to listen to this young expert from Liverpool Uni on what is and can or can't be done with Trades agreements:

https://www.facebook.com/Universityo...7204436973623/


because it ain't just about bent bananas, innit.
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  #5847  
Old 14.10.2016, 17:37
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Oh I know, many here don't respect or like experts, but I'd urge you to listen to this young expert from Liverpool Uni on what is and can or can't be done with Trades agreements:

https://www.facebook.com/Universityo...7204436973623/


because it ain't just about bent bananas, innit.
Perhaps if these videos etc. were more widely available before the referendum it would have helped.

Instead the remain campaign was pretty toxic and complacent. Nobody really thought leave would win, heck Farrage and Boris didn't think they would on election night.
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  #5848  
Old 14.10.2016, 17:48
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Indeed, but people were also told not to listen to experts- and in fact ignore them and go with their (gut) instinct. This video, by the same man- was widely available before the vote- but was ignored by those who didn't really want to listen and preferred to go lalalalalalalala rule Britannia instead:

https://www.facebook.com/Universityo...6097424750991/
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  #5849  
Old 14.10.2016, 17:49
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Indeed, but people were also told not to listen to experts- and in fact ignore them and go with their (gut) instinct. This video, by the same man- was widely available before the vote- but was ignored by those who didn't really want to listen and preferred to go lalalalalalalala rule Britannia instead:

https://www.facebook.com/Universityo...6097424750991/
Says 3rd October on that video
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  #5850  
Old 14.10.2016, 17:55
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Perhaps if these videos etc. were more widely available before the referendum it would have helped.

Instead the remain campaign was pretty toxic and complacent. Nobody really thought leave would win, heck Farrage and Boris didn't think they would on election night.
This kind of information was out there and it wasn't too difficult to find.
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  #5851  
Old 14.10.2016, 17:59
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Probably not even the parliament could have made the vote binding because the British monarch has the last say in many cases, and certainly in just about everything affecting foreign relations.
On the contrary the UK constitution although unwritten, is presented as having a sovereign parliament, which up to now it more or less has been. The Queen is subject to the constitution and can only consult, advise and warn - even the Queen's speech is written by the government. Were the Queen to go beyond that then the UK would face a very serious constitutional crises.
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  #5852  
Old 14.10.2016, 18:00
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Says 3rd October on that video
Apologies, here is the one:

https://youtu.be/USTypBKEd8Y
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  #5853  
Old 14.10.2016, 18:47
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Judging from the kind of comments left by Leave supporters on pro-Remain Facebook pages before the vote I think this would be a typical response: "Bla bla bla, whatever. He's funded by the EU".

With most newspapers in the UK with a wide circulation being anti-EU and with an ineffectual opposition in parliament that's likely only to get weaker with the boundary changes, I think there's a dire need for accessible political satire that would draw in both Remain and Leave voters and get them thinking about how they vote. Something like Spitting Image.
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  #5854  
Old 14.10.2016, 23:01
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

A landmark trade deal between the EU and Canada is in jeopardy after being rejected by a Belgian regional parliament, raising questions about other agreements such as a future arrangement between the UK and the EU.

EU trade ministers hope to sign the deal on Tuesday, but the outcome is in doubt after the Walloon parliament passed a resolution against it on Friday.

But EU negotiators have said it can only go ahead with the unanimous agreement of all 28 member states. While several countries have raised last-minute problems, Belgium has become a stumbling block that threatens to bring down the deal.

Belgium’s federal government supports the trade deal but may be unable to give its consent because of opposition from the Socialist-led Walloon parliament, which has argued that the CETA gives too much power to multinationals.

The problems in finalising the CETA hint at the political minefield that the British government will face in agreeing a free trade deal with the EU.

Source
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  #5855  
Old 15.10.2016, 00:08
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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On the contrary the UK constitution although unwritten, is presented as having a sovereign parliament, which up to now it more or less has been. The Queen is subject to the constitution and can only consult, advise and warn - even the Queen's speech is written by the government. Were the Queen to go beyond that then the UK would face a very serious constitutional crises.
Of course she's subject to the constitution, that's why it's called a constitutional monarchy. The rest of your post looks quite wrong.

For instance the monarch is the top military chief and commander, soldiers swear swear allegiance not to the country, nor the parliement, the constitution, etc. Instead the British soldiers swear allegiance to the Queen - Might is right.

It's amazing how little lots of people on here, including many Brits, know about absolutely crucial aspects of their own country. Didn't you wonder why Odile posted on the Royal Prerogative in response to my post?(you do want to look that up) Certain types of law can not become effective without the monarch's approval, and indeed the Queen does occasionally make good use of her power as evidenced for instance by this case. And of course those mentioned here.

Last edited by Urs Max; 15.10.2016 at 00:21.
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  #5856  
Old 15.10.2016, 00:19
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

An article (in German, behind paywall but the first 3 or 5 articles per month are free) in the Tagesanzeiger refers to a FT article which says that the EU bill for Brexit may be around €20 Billion. That figure is the balance of the UK's share of already approved spendings that are to occur by or before spring 2019 and EU payments to the UK. It could easily double to €40 billion if already approved spendings until 2020 (that's the span of the current 7-year plan) were taken into account.

The numbers reportedly have been presented to members of government and administration of four EU countries, with everybody commenting that the numbers and assumptions look "reasonable".

Looking forward to more complaints by Leavers complaining about unreasonably EU behavior.
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Old 15.10.2016, 01:55
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Interesting developments today- sent to me by a UK friend:

Really interesting court case and day 1 of "The Royal Prerogative"

It basically boils down to whether a minister -in this case Amino 1 - can remove rights established by an act of parliament.

It raises questions of "fundamental constitutional importance about the limits of the power of the executive"

Pannick, QC for the challenger, said " this court is not concerned with the political wisdom of withdrawal" "The government was wrong to suggest the legal challenge was merely camouflage to prevent Brexit"

Pannick's client the court was advised had again received threats, abuse and insults.

A further QC - representing the people
Argued" the constitution of our parliamentary democracy, unwritten as it is , is predicated on the sovereignty of parliament and the courts working as arbiter. Notification of withdrawal leads to the removal of the rights of UK citizens.
Chambers QC argued that the referendum did not replace the UK system of parliamentary democracy"
If the government triggered A50 it would be setting itself up as "de facto legislature"
This is a case about what is legally required, not what is legally expedient.


Love both Marmite and Cenovis- full of vitamin B12 - wonderful. Mind you, you don't like absinthe either, so ...
The BBC reports the court case could last several weeks...

in the meantime....

Most members of the House of Lords are also opposed to Brexit. That raises the possibility of another extraordinary scenario - an unelected Lords voting against the wishes of 17.4 million people.

If the government loses its case in the British courts, they could eventually go to the European Court of Justice.

It raises the possibility of a truly strange scenario - Brexit ministers asking European judges to overturn the decision of the British courts.
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Old 15.10.2016, 02:42
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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If the government loses its case in the British courts, they could eventually go to the European Court of Justice.

It raises the possibility of a truly strange scenario - Brexit ministers asking European judges to overturn the decision of the British courts.
The U.K. Supreme Court is the final arbitrator on this matter. There is no point of EU law to be considered, the EU leaves treaty ratification and presumably revocation to be determined at a national level in accordance to national law.
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  #5859  
Old 15.10.2016, 03:32
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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It's amazing how little lots of people on here, including many Brits, know about absolutely crucial aspects of their own country.
Well it is over thirty years ago since I studied constitutional law and admittedly the U.K. was only covered in 5 or 6 lectures... traditionally the U.K. was assumed to have a sovereign parliament and indeed one of the the arguments used in the referendum was that an exit would restore sovereignty to the parliament.

There is now a serious legal question: who is sovereign? The queen, parliament or the people... ultimately the decision of the Supreme Court may have wide ranging consequences but the current debate on BREXIT over shadows it.
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Old 15.10.2016, 04:13
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The problems in finalising the CETA hint at the political minefield that the British government will face in agreeing a free trade deal with the EU.
This is hardly news. It's precisely why the UK government is moving towards the so-called "hard Brexit".

Forget the good people of Walloon, or other troublesome fragments. Senior ministers in the French and German governments have pretty much stated that there will be no 'free trade deal' i.e. no "soft Brexit".

It wouldn't be my ideal way to leave, because tariffs and quotas etc. will hurt us all in the short term (the EU collectively more than the UK), but if that's what the French and Germans are saying, we may as well accept it and go for the clean break.
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