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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #5981  
Old 20.10.2016, 16:26
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Bad news - chocolate money is now stronger than GBP...
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  #5982  
Old 20.10.2016, 18:52
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Back to Parliament going against the will of the people again. We said out and we mean out!
Enough for me to say the PM can invoke without Parliament's interference.
So how does an advisory referendum trump a legally elected parliment, it is after all a soverign parliment or so the people were lead to believe
when they voted exit to restored soverignety to their parliment. If you are happy to support the PM in breaking with constitutional
tradition in this case can we also expect to see you support her if say she deciding to join the EEA without consulting parliment or some other
decision you did not approve of.

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And MPs risk deselection.
And this is how it should be, if indeed the UK has a soverign parliment (is it not what the people voted for???). If the parliment fails to
do the will of the people then by all means kick them out! But when you start ignoring the constituion or in the UK's situaiton tradition,
you should not be surprised if others do the same. After all if the PM does not need to abide by the constitution, why should say the FM of
Scotland need to conern herself with the parliment of Westminster either in holding a new independence referendum?
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  #5983  
Old 20.10.2016, 19:07
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

If they're not going to abide by the result of the referendum then they shouldn't have bothered to waste money, time and effort in holding it in the first place. It may be advisory, but still a clear indication of what the British people want and their representatives in Parliament should do what they want them to. Get us out of the EU. That's what the MPs are supposed to do is it not? Represent the people who voted for them?

As this is an unique situation I doubt anything in the constitution, written or otherwise, says what the PM can or cannot do. Isn't that what the court case is supposed to decide?
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Old 20.10.2016, 19:13
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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So how does an advisory referendum trump a legally elected parliment,
Just a few arbitrary objections. I'm sure there are many more.

--- In what sense was it "advisory" only? Cameron was at pains to emphasise that this was a binding in-out vote, and NOT advisory. Indeed, this was a major part of the Remain campaign, that it was of critical importance to vote.

--- Why did no one say say during the campaign, "it doesn't matter if you vote or not, the referendum is merely advisory, and not binding"?

--- Parliament itself, using the strength you say it has, actually voted to approve the referendum, and to make it binding on the government of the day.

--- Was the 1975 referendum also merely "advisory" in your view?
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Old 20.10.2016, 20:09
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Just a few arbitrary objections. I'm sure there are many more.

--- In what sense was it "advisory" only? Cameron was at pains to emphasise that this was a binding in-out vote, and NOT advisory. Indeed, this was a major part of the Remain campaign, that it was of critical importance to vote.

--- Why did no one say say during the campaign, "it doesn't matter if you vote or not, the referendum is merely advisory, and not binding"?

--- Parliament itself, using the strength you say it has, actually voted to approve the referendum, and to make it binding on the government of the day.

--- Was the 1975 referendum also merely "advisory" in your view?
Sorry but that is rubbish, the referendum was not binding.

Here is a relevant quote from the House of Commons Briefing Paper, European Union Referendum Bill 2015-16.

"It does not contain any requirement for the UK Government to
implement the results of the referendum, nor set a time limit by which a
vote to leave the EU should be implemented. Instead, this is a type of
referendum known as pre-legislative or consultative, which enables the
electorate to voice an opinion which then influences the Government in
its policy decisions.

The UK does not have constitutional provisions which would require the results of a referendum to be implemented, unlike, for example, the Republic of Ireland, where the circumstances in which a binding referendum should be held are set out in its constitution."

Source

Yes, the 1975 referendum was also merely "advisory" for the reasons quoted above.
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  #5986  
Old 21.10.2016, 00:02
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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That's what the MPs are supposed to do is it not? Represent the people who voted for them?
Yes, according to tradition in the UK the MPs represents their voters in all matters legal and they have been advised of the peoples opinion and they should act in accordance with that advise and if they do not then it is up to the voters to kick them out. But the PM has no right to interfere with that process, to do so suggests that she and not parliament is sovereign. It would be rather ironic having voted to return sovereignty to their parliament, the first act of the PM in achieve that exit would be to ignore the parliament!

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Isn't that what the court case is supposed to decide?
Well the problem here is you don't have a written constitution and so it is based on tradition. Should the court rule in favour of the PM it would mean that the PM would have a legal basis to ignore the parliament going forward and thus making a mockery of the idea of the sovereign parliament that the people thought they voted for.
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  #5987  
Old 21.10.2016, 00:26
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Yes, according to tradition in the UK the MPs represents their voters in all matters legal and they have been advised of the peoples opinion and they should act in accordance with that advise and if they do not then it is up to the voters to kick them out. But the PM has no right to interfere with that process, to do so suggests that she and not parliament is sovereign. It would be rather ironic having voted to return sovereignty to their parliament, the first act of the PM in achieve that exit would be to ignore the parliament!



Well the problem here is you don't have a written constitution and so it is based on tradition. Should the court rule in favour of the PM it would mean that the PM would have a legal basis to ignore the parliament going forward and thus making a mockery of the idea of the sovereign parliament that the people thought they voted for.
It's almost funny the way people who want it reversed try to dress it up as an innocent admin point. It's like my kids asking for 10 pence just because they want to carry ten pence dad and we won't spend it in sweets promise really we promise...
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  #5988  
Old 21.10.2016, 01:24
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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It's almost funny the way people who want it reversed try to dress it up as an innocent admin point. It's like my kids asking for 10 pence just because they want to carry ten pence dad and we won't spend it in sweets promise really we promise...
So which part of my analysis do you disagree with and why???

As for reversal, why would you fear reversal. If parliament was to reject the invocation of article 50, then the PM could call a general election and based on the referendum presumably she would return with the majority needed to proceed. That would give her both the mandate and the legal standing to proceed.
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  #5989  
Old 21.10.2016, 01:28
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Just a few arbitrary objections. I'm sure there are many more.
It's definitely a mess.

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--- In what sense was it "advisory" only? Cameron was at pains to emphasise that this was a binding in-out vote, and NOT advisory. Indeed, this was a major part of the Remain campaign, that it was of critical importance to vote.
What if Cameron didn't have the power to promise what he did? The law ordering the vote says to hold a vote, nothing more. Besides, "representing" the people is far from "follow orders by the people"

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--- Parliament itself, using the strength you say it has, actually voted to approve the referendum, and to make it binding on the government of the day.
Source?
Also see the actual law ordering the vote be held.
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  #5990  
Old 21.10.2016, 08:39
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Yes, according to tradition in the UK the MPs represents their voters in all matters legal and they have been advised of the peoples opinion and they should act in accordance with that advise and if they do not then it is up to the voters to kick them out. But the PM has no right to interfere with that process, to do so suggests that she and not parliament is sovereign. It would be rather ironic having voted to return sovereignty to their parliament, the first act of the PM in achieve that exit would be to ignore the parliament!



Well the problem here is you don't have a written constitution and so it is based on tradition. Should the court rule in favour of the PM it would mean that the PM would have a legal basis to ignore the parliament going forward and thus making a mockery of the idea of the sovereign parliament that the people thought they voted for.
Yet that same unwritten constitution gives the PM/Government certain powers to act without Parliament. I found an interesting article written just after the referendum result. I'll let you read the whole thing, but here's what I consider the pertinent bits.

"Another way of looking at this is to acknowledge that the Government and Parliament played different, and complementary, roles in securing EU membership, and that they will (or may) play different, and complementary, roles in terminating such membership. Just as it was the UK Government, exercising prerogative power, that caused the UK to be bound by EU Treaty obligations, so it is for the Government, using prerogative power, to extricate the UK from those obligations — including by triggering the Article 50 extrication process itself. Meanwhile, just as it was for Parliament to enact such domestic legislation as EU membership required (such as the ECA 1972), it is equally for Parliament to enact any domestic legislation that Brexit may in due course require. On this analysis, no tension between the ECA 1972 and the prerogative arises because they concerned with distinct spheres of activity, the one operating on the plane of diplomacy and international law, and the other operating on the plane of domestic law.

This is not to deny that domestic law could not have the effect of curtailing the prerogative, but as legislation that simply facilitates discharge of Treaty obligations entered into under the prerogative, the ECA 1972 does not amount to a statute that cuts across the prerogative. Indeed, if it were the case that legislation giving effect to Treaty obligations were to extinguish any prerogative power to renegotiate or extricate the UK from such obligations, it would be necessary to enact legislation every time the Government wished to secure such renegotiation or extrication — and that simply does not happen. The fundamental point, then, is that legislation — like the ECA 1972 — facilitating the discharge of treaty obligations does not occupy the same legal space as, and therefore does not conflict with, the Government’s prerogative power to contract, renegotiate or extricate the UK from treaty obligations.

Closing remarks

Just because, on my analysis, the Prime Minister can trigger Article 50 without reference to Parliament, it does not follow that that would be a wise or sensible thing to do. Triggering Article 50 would be a highly significant step, given that it would open up the possibility of — even though, as discussed above, it certainly would not render inevitable — the wholesale departure of the UK from the EU. In such circumstances, the case for parliamentary involvement is strong. Indeed, in other contexts — most notably the use of the prerogative to deploy the armed forces abroad — there is an increasing expectation, and arguably a constitutional convention, concerning parliamentary involvement. In the Article 50 context, there is no equivalent established convention that requires parliamentary involvement, but there is certainly a normative argument in favour of such involvement that could in due course form the basis of a convention.

Even if one dismisses the possibility of “ignoring” the result of the referendum, much remains to be decided — including about the UK’s interests would best be served by triggering Article 50 or seeking to proceed in some other manner — and there are excellent democratic reasons for arguing that Parliament should play a full part in those deliberations. As we are rapidly discovering, the volume and complexity of the issues left unresolved by the binary view expressed by the electorate is immense, and Parliament has a crucial role to play in shaping the way forward. For all that the UK has experimented with direct democracy through the holding of a referendum on EU membership and on other constitutional matters, the UK remains, fundamentally, a parliamentary democracy, and it cannot plausibly be argued that the referendum substitutes for proper parliamentary involvement.

But such normative arguments are a distinct issue from the question whether Parliament, as a matter of law, must be involved at the outset, by way of enacting primary legislation firing the Article 50 starting gun. For the reasons given in this post, the better view is that Article 50 can be invoked by the Prime Minister using prerogative power, without the involvement of Parliament."

https://publiclawforeveryone.com/201...-to-legislate/

Obviously it's just one lawyer's opinion, but I think it's put very well. Two different processes were required to enter the EU and two will be needed to leave. Parliament does have its role to play, both in approving any "deal" that is reached by the Government with the EU and in altering/cancelling those laws which bind the UK to EU law once we leave the EU. But the PM needing Parliament's approval to trigger Article 50 - no.
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  #5991  
Old 21.10.2016, 10:54
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Clegg made to look a bit of a prat. "people didn't know what they were voting for!" Lol.

https://twitter.com/daily_politics/s...62412338999297
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  #5992  
Old 21.10.2016, 12:01
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Curious situation!

When you ask Leavers if they voted against immigration they say "Oh no, I am not racist. I voted for sovereignty".

Sovereignty means the UK sovereign Parliament makes all the important decisions.
Now we come to invoking Art. 50 which is possibly the most important decision of the century and are the Leavers demanding that Parliament is involved in the decision? Are they hitting the table and saying regardless of the law Parliament must decide!
No they are not!

What a total farce!
Clearly the Leavers have no confidence in the democratic process and Parliament!
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Old 21.10.2016, 12:04
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Clearly the Leavers have no confidence in the democratic process and Parliament!
Exactly that. Which is why I want direct democracy.

The EU referendum was a good start.
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Old 21.10.2016, 12:05
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Curious situation!

When you ask Leavers if they voted against immigration they say "Oh no, I am not racist. I voted for sovereignty".

Sovereignty means the UK sovereign Parliament makes all the important decisions.
Now we come to invoking Art. 50 which is possibly the most important decision of the century and are the Leavers demanding that Parliament is involved in the decision? Are they hitting the table and saying regardless of the law Parliament must decide!
No they are not!

What a total farce!
Clearly the Leavers have no confidence in the democratic process and Parliament!
there is nothing like "the leavers". there was only a no vote.
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  #5995  
Old 21.10.2016, 12:12
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Exactly that. Which is why I want direct democracy.

The EU referendum was a good start.
It would be ideal but parliament needs to clean up its campaigning strategy first. The utter car crash that was the EU Referendum campaign proved to be is not the way to do things.
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Old 21.10.2016, 12:14
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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It would be ideal but parliament needs to clean up its campaigning strategy first. The utter car crash that was the EU Referendum campaign proved to be is not the way to do things.
Or just get rid of Parliament. There's no need for party politics anymore. There's certainly no need for 650 MPs.
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Old 21.10.2016, 13:11
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Exactly that. Which is why I want direct democracy.

The EU referendum was a good start.
Funny, everybody gives a different reason for voting "no".

I do not envy May the job of defining a Brexit that will keep all those voters with their different ideas happy.
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Old 21.10.2016, 13:17
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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What a bed wetter. Imagine him in the blitz.

It wouldn't. Leave would win again, and with a bigger margin. Despite the daily output of lip quivering opinion pieces in the Grauniad.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...jority-8283139

Sovereignty was the main reason that people voted leave not immigration. See link above. Remainers always want to make this about immigration.

But but, won't the EU ride in on a great white horse and save the day for Ireland?

It's a good thing the UK doesn't produce cheese or chocolate. Funny that this is being led by Clegg and Miliband, who's biggest claim to fame is the complete destruction of their respective parties.
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Or just get rid of Parliament. There's no need for party politics anymore. There's certainly no need for 650 MPs.
Ah so!
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  #5999  
Old 21.10.2016, 13:42
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Ah so!
What's your point?
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Old 21.10.2016, 14:18
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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When you ask Leavers if they voted against immigration they say "Oh no, I am not racist. I voted for sovereignty".
Although in fairness about 95% of those claiming that are lying.
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