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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #6001  
Old 21.10.2016, 14:34
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Or just get rid of Parliament. There's no need for party politics anymore. There's certainly no need for 650 MPs.
And replace them with what? An emperor? A Commander in Chief? A dictator? Or let Her Maj make all the decisions?
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  #6002  
Old 21.10.2016, 14:37
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Funny, everybody gives a different reason for voting "no".

I do not envy May the job of defining a Brexit that will keep all those voters with their different ideas happy.
Probably irrelevant what kind of Brexit May or the Government decide upon. Surely it is the rest of the EU that will decide - and they even have to have total unanimity- any of the EU members can VETO the decision. The EU has already made it clear : no negotiations prior to article 50- then the rules are clear - once the country have called article 50, it will NOT have any say in the negotiations. Klar! I'm amazed people are now all surprised about this- as this was not clear since 1973- and say the EU is being 'vindictive and wants to punish' the UK, etc.
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  #6003  
Old 21.10.2016, 14:41
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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And replace them with what? An emperor? A Commander in Chief? A dictator? Or let Her Maj make all the decisions?
Something similar to the Swiss system. Though with far fewer MPs.
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  #6004  
Old 21.10.2016, 14:44
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Klar! I'm amazed people are now all surprised about this- as this was not clear since 1973- and say the EU is being 'vindictive and wants to punish' the UK, etc.
“The UK has decided to do a Brexit, I believe even a hard Brexit. Well, then we must go all the way through the UK’s willingness to leave the EU. We have to have this firmness,” President Hollande told 150 guests at the 20th anniversary of Notre Europe, the pro-EU think-tank founded by Jacques Delors, the former EU commission chief.

“If not, we would jeopardise the fundamental principles of the EU. Other countries would want to leave the EU to get the supposed advantages without the obligations.”

The Socialist leader insisted: “There must be a threat, there must be a risk, there must be a price. Otherwise we will be in a negotiation that cannot end well.”


https://www.ft.com/content/5f84e4c4-...5-f79f5696c731
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  #6005  
Old 21.10.2016, 15:12
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Something similar to the Swiss system. Though with far fewer MPs.
You want to get rid of the parliament and your dream is a country ruled and governed by and from the parliament... you are far too much fun to be put on ignore list. My two words: and
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  #6006  
Old 21.10.2016, 15:15
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Something similar to the Swiss system. Though with far fewer MPs.
The Swiss system where some not insignificant rules and regs vary canton to canton? The Swiss system where the government run everything no questions asked?

O...kay...


Hadn't seen Faltrad's post. That indeed.

Last edited by RufusB; 21.10.2016 at 15:16. Reason: Amended
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  #6007  
Old 21.10.2016, 15:25
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The Swiss system where the government run everything no questions asked?
Here's a clue, they don't.

Switzerland is the closest state in the world to a direct democracy. For any change in the constitution, a referendum is mandatory (mandatory referendum); for any change in a law, a referendum can be requested (optional referendum). Through referenda, citizens may challenge any law voted by federal parliament and through federal popular initiative introduce amendments to the federal constitution.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Switzerland

http://direct-democracy.geschichte-schweiz.ch/
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  #6008  
Old 21.10.2016, 15:28
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The Swiss system where some not insignificant rules and regs vary canton to canton?
That's the best part!

(and something that the US copied, or vice-versa)

Tom
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  #6009  
Old 21.10.2016, 15:55
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Obviously it's just one lawyer's opinion, but I think it's put very well. Two different processes were required to enter the EU and two will be needed to leave. Parliament does have its role to play, both in approving any "deal" that is reached by the Government with the EU and in altering/cancelling those laws which bind the UK to EU law once we leave the EU. But the PM needing Parliament's approval to trigger Article 50 - no.
So in summary you say: it took an act of parliament to join the EEC, parliament needs to approve the new treaty and fix up the laws, but the PM can ignore them if she wants to break a treaty! Do you really not see the contradiction there???
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  #6010  
Old 21.10.2016, 16:32
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Did nobody else watch 'Question Time' last night? I'm just rewatching the part about Brexit now.

Traditionally, I have little time for Ken Clark, but he spoke a good deal of sense last night in the face of people who were borderline aggressive. Yanis Varoufakis took him to task on a few crucial points, but moreso when the question switched to the migration crisis. On that point, Varoufakis absolutely wiped the floor with everyone on the panel.


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If they're not going to abide by the result of the referendum then they shouldn't have bothered to waste money, time and effort in holding it in the first place.
Now you're beginning to get the point the rest of us were up in arms about since a year ago.

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--- Was the 1975 referendum also merely "advisory" in your view?
Absolutely, particularly as it was after the event. We joined the Common Market in 1973.

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Well the problem here is you don't have a written constitution and so it is based on tradition. Should the court rule in favour of the PM it would mean that the PM would have a legal basis to ignore the parliament going forward and thus making a mockery of the idea of the sovereign parliament that the people thought they voted for.
The real problem facing the High Court is, as they have acknowledged, the case does pose serious legal and constitutional issues. The problem is that the UK deliberately has an unwritten constitution to give it a high degree of flexibility. The result of this case would force elements of the constitution to be written.

Whatever the result, it will be contested by either side. Then it will go to the Supreme Court, and from there, to the ECJ. How ironic is that?!!! The final say will most lie with the ECJ.

For the sake of expediency, this entire process is due to be concluded by the end of this year.


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Yes, according to tradition in the UK the MPs represents their voters in all matters legal and they have been advised of the peoples opinion and they should act in accordance with that advise and if they do not then it is up to the voters to kick them out.
Not refering to your good self, and for want of repeating myself for a third time (whioch I do hate), the issue with the particular constituency where my vote was cast, is that the sitting Conservative MP was heavily pro-Brexit, but the electorate gave a resounding Remain result.
Area total - Remain: 44,086 - Leave: 37,706 - MP Leave

My home town gave a massive Leave result, even though the sitting MP was strongly in favour of Remain.

Area total - Remain: 58,942 - Leave: 104,331 - MP Remain

Both of these scenarios have been replicated up and down the country, so honestly now...how should MP's vote? I'd be interested to see hard stats on how many MP's found themselves on the opposite side of their constituency's result.
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  #6011  
Old 21.10.2016, 16:37
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Here's a clue, they don't.

Switzerland is the closest state in the world to a direct democracy. For any change in the constitution, a referendum is mandatory (mandatory referendum); for any change in a law, a referendum can be requested (optional referendum). Through referenda, citizens may challenge any law voted by federal parliament and through federal popular initiative introduce amendments to the federal constitution.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Switzerland

http://direct-democracy.geschichte-schweiz.ch/

Don't. Bite. Rufus... don't. Bite.

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That's the best part!

(and something that the US copied, or vice-versa)

Tom
That's all right then. Phew. For a second there I was worried. Wait. What?


Blueangel... I suppose the MPs in that situation will have to dance with the one that brung them... not good.

Last edited by RufusB; 21.10.2016 at 16:43. Reason: Blueangel
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  #6012  
Old 21.10.2016, 17:07
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Exactly that. Which is why I want direct democracy.

The EU referendum was a good start.
If you want Swiss style direct democracy, you need to begin educating kids in British schools NOW!

I'm in favour of a high degree of direct democracy, but I do wonder high the British electorate would react to some votes being mandatory.
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  #6013  
Old 21.10.2016, 17:12
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Blueangel... I suppose the MPs in that situation will have to dance with the one that brung them... not good.
How will they even know if they're voting in line with what brung them in? You could easily end up with Labour / Leave MPs voting in line with their Conservative & UKIP constituents, and vice versa. It's a pickle and a half.
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  #6014  
Old 21.10.2016, 17:17
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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How will they even know if they're voting in line with what brung them in? You could easily end up with Labour / Leave MPs voting in line with their Conservative & UKIP constituents, and vice versa. It's a pickle and a half.
I suppose they'll all need the vote info for their constituency... but...yes. A mess. And May hasn't been helping things has she. I can see the UK having another vote... but on what exactly is anyone's guess.
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  #6015  
Old 21.10.2016, 17:31
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Here's a clue, they don't.

Switzerland is the closest state in the world to a direct democracy. For any change in the constitution, a referendum is mandatory (mandatory referendum); for any change in a law, a referendum can be requested (optional referendum). Through referenda, citizens may challenge any law voted by federal parliament and through federal popular initiative introduce amendments to the federal constitution.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Switzerland

http://direct-democracy.geschichte-schweiz.ch/
This would not work in the UK
"For any change in the constitution, a referendum is mandatory" The UK does not have a written constitution so this is not relevant.

The rest is "optional"
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  #6016  
Old 21.10.2016, 17:54
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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So in summary you say: it took an act of parliament to join the EEC, parliament needs to approve the new treaty and fix up the laws, but the PM can ignore them if she wants to break a treaty! Do you really not see the contradiction there???
No, no contradiction. The PM/Government can use their powers to trigger Article 50 and then Parliament does what's needed to change UK laws to implement any subsequenty deals/treaties.

"Another way of looking at this is to acknowledge that the Government and Parliament played different, and complementary, roles in securing EU membership, and that they will (or may) play different, and complementary, roles in terminating such membership. Just as it was the UK Government, exercising prerogative power, that caused the UK to be bound by EU Treaty obligations, so it is for the Government, using prerogative power, to extricate the UK from those obligations — including by triggering the Article 50 extrication process itself. Meanwhile, just as it was for Parliament to enact such domestic legislation as EU membership required (such as the ECA 1972), it is equally for Parliament to enact any domestic legislation that Brexit may in due course require. On this analysis, no tension between the ECA 1972 and the prerogative arises because they concerned with distinct spheres of activity, the one operating on the plane of diplomacy and international law, and the other operating on the plane of domestic law.

This is not to deny that domestic law could not have the effect of curtailing the prerogative, but as legislation that simply facilitates discharge of Treaty obligations entered into under the prerogative, the ECA 1972 does not amount to a statute that cuts across the prerogative. Indeed, if it were the case that legislation giving effect to Treaty obligations were to extinguish any prerogative power to renegotiate or extricate the UK from such obligations, it would be necessary to enact legislation every time the Government wished to secure such renegotiation or extrication — and that simply does not happen. The fundamental point, then, is that legislation — like the ECA 1972 — facilitating the discharge of treaty obligations does not occupy the same legal space as, and therefore does not conflict with, the Government’s prerogative power to contract, renegotiate or extricate the UK from treaty obligations."

Seems pretty clear cut to me on this opinion. It's how we got in, so why can't it work to get us out?
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  #6017  
Old 21.10.2016, 19:00
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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No, no contradiction. The PM/Government can use their powers to trigger Article 50 and then Parliament does what's needed to change UK laws to implement any subsequenty deals/treaties.
For me it is an academic discussion, but if I was British citizen (subject) I would be very unhappy at the idea that the PM can make it up as she goes along. It will be interesting to see how this pans out legally.
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  #6018  
Old 21.10.2016, 19:25
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Whatever the result, it will be contested by either side. Then it will go to the Supreme Court, and from there, to the ECJ. How ironic is that?!!! The final say will most lie with the ECJ.
What would be the basis for petitioning the ECJ, decisions on accepting treaty changes and presumably a decision to break the treaty are left to each member state according to their domestic law.

We don't have a UK president, but Ireland has had I think 9 EU related referenda and yes there were legal challenges but non to my knowledge went further than the supreme court. I doubt the UK supreme court would find a reason to refer the matter to the ECJ nor do I see the ECJ accepting the petition of an EU citizen either.
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  #6019  
Old 21.10.2016, 19:32
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

A very interesting discussion here about democracy:

https://www.opendemocracy.net/benjam...he-brexit-vote

and on democracy in the US:

https://youtu.be/hDsPWmioSHg

Last edited by Odile; 21.10.2016 at 20:28.
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  #6020  
Old 21.10.2016, 20:16
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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For me it is an academic discussion, but if I was British citizen (subject) I would be very unhappy at the idea that the PM can make it up as she goes along. It will be interesting to see how this pans out legally.
She's not making it up as she goes along. She using the powers rightfully granted to her as PM. If you didn't like it you should have complained back when the same powers were used to take us into the EU and when they were used to renegotiate the UK's rebate in 1984.
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