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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #6041  
Old 22.10.2016, 21:52
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Except that right now it is that technical stuff that really matters! I am surprised at how little the British people understand about how their country is governed and the fundamental question being decided in the courts right now.
Well the basic issue is sadly many UK people have not progressed beyond "the ones in white hats are good" and "the bad ones have black hats"

Now we are reduced to negotiating a new deal with the EU where the whole process can be blocked by an obscure part of industrial Belgium trying to reduce their 20+% unemployment rate.
It is like the UK Brexit negotiation position being controlled by Ebbw Vale!!
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  #6042  
Old 22.10.2016, 21:54
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Except that right now it is that technical stuff that really matters! I am surprised at how little the British people understand about how their country is governed and the fundamental question being decided in the courts right now.
I think you'll find it's the same for most countries. When the populations average person has a form saying 'choose from A or B. We will act in your selection.' They would expect that to happen. When some high rolling legal experts then say 'well we've looked into this and you can't actually go ahead, sorry little people I am afraid us rich lawyers win again, get back down the mines to your menial little lives' that would really piss them off. In the end they'd be some kind of revolution or revolt, but that's not really important to the rich lawyers. They just want things their way regardless of the cost.
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  #6043  
Old 22.10.2016, 21:58
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Well the basic issue is sadly many UK people have not progressed beyond "the ones in white hats are good" and "the bad ones have black hats"
And that one sentence is important. It defines almost perfectly the sneering hate towards the working class, roundly labeling good people as idiots, racists or worse when he vast majority are good decent people. in fact the predjudice comes from the source, not the destination in these types of comment.
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  #6044  
Old 22.10.2016, 22:11
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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And that one sentence is important. It defines almost perfectly the sneering hate towards the working class, roundly labeling good people as idiots, racists or worse when he vast majority are good decent people. in fact the predjudice comes from the source, not the destination in these types of comment.
"the vast majority are good decent people" Of course, no question.

"labelling good people as idiots, racists or worse" Not really.

The basic issue is that people did not foresee the possible consequences of their actions. Nobody knows what these consequences will be; hopefully not so bad as some people forecast.
However the advice to ignore experts might well have unpleasant consequences; not a surprise to anyone really?
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  #6045  
Old 22.10.2016, 22:17
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I think you'll find it's the same for most countries. When the populations average person has a form saying 'choose from A or B. We will act in your selection.' They would expect that to happen. When some high rolling legal experts then say 'well we've looked into this and you can't actually go ahead, sorry little people I am afraid us rich lawyers win again, get back down the mines to your menial little lives' that would really piss them off. In the end they'd be some kind of revolution or revolt, but that's not really important to the rich lawyers. They just want things their way regardless of the cost.
"When the populations average person has a form saying 'choose from A or B." Problem is the understanding of the consequences?

It is like a form saying "do you want to divorce your partner?"

Then you turn up later and say "Nobody told me I would lose my house, my car, my pension and I cannot see my children any more"?

At some point you have to dig a bit deeper into questions and take responsibility for the consequences of your responses?
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  #6046  
Old 22.10.2016, 22:21
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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"the vast majority are good decent people" Of course, no question.

"labelling good people as idiots, racists or worse" Not really.

The basic issue is that people did not foresee the possible consequences of their actions. Nobody knows what these consequences will be; hopefully not so bad as some people forecast.
However the advice to ignore experts might well have unpleasant consequences; not a surprise to anyone really?
But it's the decision. It is the choice that has been made. So instead of focusing our energies in trying to stop it we should be applauding and embracing it and talking it up, not down. If we are determined we will fail, we will. If a positive outlook is taken, then a positive deal can be done.

It might be a disaster, if I' did been in Britain myself I would have voted to stay in the end. but the decision has been made and everyone should now get on with making it work as best we can and not putting stupid legal roadblocks in the way which waste time and money.
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  #6047  
Old 22.10.2016, 22:22
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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OK so it was a big waste of money then really. We shouldn't have bothered.
No not at all, it might have been done better but the people did express their opinion as requested and that is not in question. The question is, is the PM free to ignore parliament when she feels it is convenient to do so. And if she is, then what is the role of the parliament? How can the opposition hold the government to account if there is no obligation to consult parliament. After all in a parliament of Westminster style democracy that is the role of the opposition.
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  #6048  
Old 22.10.2016, 22:23
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"When the populations average person has a form saying 'choose from A or B." Problem is the understanding of the consequences?

It is like a form saying "do you want to divorce your partner?"

Then you turn up later and say "Nobody told me I would lose my house, my car, my pension and I cannot see my children any more"?

At some point you have to dig a bit deeper into questions and take responsibility for the consequences of your responses?
people did understand the consequences. You have no evidence they didn't, you just want to try and make that assertion so we reverse the vote.
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  #6049  
Old 22.10.2016, 22:24
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No not at all, it might have been done better but the people did express their opinion as requested and that is not in question. The question is, is the PM free to ignore parliament when she feels it is convenient to do so. And if she is, then what is the role of the parliament? How can the opposition hold the government to account if there is no obligation to consult parliament. After all in a parliament of Westminster style democracy that is the role of the opposition.
Everyone agreed to have a referendum, including parliament, so now we get on with the result.
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  #6050  
Old 22.10.2016, 22:35
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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But it's the decision. It is the choice that has been made. So instead of focusing our energies in trying to stop it we should be applauding and embracing it and talking it up, not down. If we are determined we will fail, we will. If a positive outlook is taken, then a positive deal can be done.

It might be a disaster, if I' did been in Britain myself I would have voted to stay in the end. but the decision has been made and everyone should now get on with making it work as best we can and not putting stupid legal roadblocks in the way which waste time and money.
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Everyone agreed to have a referendum, including parliament, so now we get on with the result.
You keep posting "we".

How do you see this working today?

May seems determined to run the Brexit deal/negotiation without any Parliament involvement!

So how are "we" able to influence this in your view?

We are only like football fans watching a match. We can applaud good moves and boo the other side but we have no real influence on the teams and their strategies?

But please do tell me how we could be really involved and make Brexit a success?

What can we realistically do?
What tools do we have in our hands?
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  #6051  
Old 22.10.2016, 22:40
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You keep posting "we".

How do you see this working today?

May seems determined to run the Brexit deal/negotiation without any Parliament involvement!

So how are "we" able to influence this in your view?

We are only like football fans watching a match. We can applaud good moves and boo the other side but we have no real influence on the teams and their strategies?

But please do tell me how we could be really involved and make Brexit a success?

What can we realistically do?
What tools do we have in our hands?
We is the United Kingdom. We can stop asking for votes to try and block it. Stop taking it to court to block it. Stop spending every waking hour describing how terrible it will be and just let the government get on with it.
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  #6052  
Old 22.10.2016, 22:42
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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people did understand the consequences. You have no evidence they didn't, you just want to try and make that assertion so we reverse the vote.
Today nobody knows what these consequences will be so consequently nobody can understand these consequences, not me, not you and nobody!
So this is not yet a sufficient ground to reverse the vote and I certainly do not make this assertion.
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  #6053  
Old 22.10.2016, 22:45
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But it's the decision. It is the choice that has been made.
No it is not, it was basically a very large scale opinion poll, do you really think the country's business should be conducted based on opinion polls???

I think Ireland is one of the few Parliament of Westminster style democracy that has binding referenda. And there it is a completely different affair: they vote on inserting/removing/updating paragraphs of the constitution. An independent commission is responsible for the provision of factual information and once the result of a referendum is certified by the returning officer it is the law of the land.
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Old 22.10.2016, 22:48
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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We is the United Kingdom. We can stop asking for votes to try and block it. Stop taking it to court to block it. Stop spending every waking hour describing how terrible it will be and just let the government get on with it.
But how do we make Brexit happen in a positive way?

Why do you assume that Parliament voting on Brexit will block it?

I do not spend every waking hour describing how terrible it will be; I simply quote what is publicly available.
It is not my fault if this poblic information shows a negative aspect of Brexit. I am equally happy to post positive views of Brexit; just send me the links.
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  #6055  
Old 22.10.2016, 22:51
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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No it is not, it was basically a very large scale opinion poll, do you really think the country's business should be conducted based on opinion polls???

I think Ireland is one of the few Parliament of Westminster style democracy that has binding referenda. And there it is a completely different affair: they vote on inserting/removing/updating paragraphs of the constitution. An independent commission is responsible for the provision of factual information and once the result of a referendum is certified by the returning officer it is the law of the land.
So your argument really is the government has deceived the people by claiming they will implement the decision on the ballot paper when they didn't have the authority to do so. So we won't agree in the end. I am not looking at it from a technical analysis like you are, I'm looking at it from a laymens perspective: that the government would do what it said it would do.

If it's overturned then hurray, law has won the day. However it will be a disaster for Britain, far worse than any brexit vote, because the laymen will have seen their democratic view overrun by a few legal loopholes. If you think the far right had a say in the current referendum, you'd have seen nothing compared what would happen after that.
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Old 22.10.2016, 22:57
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But how do we make Brexit happen in a positive way?

Why do you assume that Parliament voting on Brexit will block it?

I do not spend every waking hour describing how terrible it will be; I simply quote what is publicly available.
It is not my fault if this poblic information shows a negative aspect of Brexit. I am equally happy to post positive views of Brexit; just send me the links.
Here you go

http://www.cityam.com/251334/brexit-...short-and-long

I just searched on positive brexit news. There are hundreds of articles Marton. Looking forward to some enthusiastic brexit campaigning from you!
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  #6057  
Old 22.10.2016, 23:04
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Here you go

http://www.cityam.com/251334/brexit-...short-and-long

I just searched on positive brexit news. There are hundreds of articles Marton. Looking forward to some enthusiastic brexit campaigning from you!
"There would be a benefit to consumers and intermediate producers from the removal of the EU tariff wall, which outweighs any cost to producers from losing protection." Kind of ignores the fall back position which is the WTO tariffs?
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Old 22.10.2016, 23:12
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"There would be a benefit to consumers and intermediate producers from the removal of the EU tariff wall, which outweighs any cost to producers from losing protection." Kind of ignores the fall back position which is the WTO tariffs?
im going to sleep, you've beaten me. I might sign back on in 20 years and read all the thousands of posts you will have made in this thread just to see if I can find something - anything - that isn't The End Of The World Is Nigh when it comes to this subject.

Have you considered a career as a demotivational speaker ?

(Meant in jest, I enjoy the debate marton!)
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Old 23.10.2016, 00:41
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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If it's overturned then hurray, law has won the day. However it will be a disaster for Britain, far worse than any brexit vote, because the laymen will have seen their democratic view overrun by a few legal loopholes.
No it would not. If parliament were to reject the proposal then it would be open to the PM to call a general election and let the voters punish the MPs that did not act in accordance with their wishes. Presumable if the people still feel the same as when they voted in the referendum they will return a parliament with the mandate to see it through.
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Old 23.10.2016, 00:48
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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im going to sleep, you've beaten me. I might sign back on in 20 years and read all the thousands of posts you will have made in this thread just to see if I can find something - anything - that isn't The End Of The World Is Nigh when it comes to this subject.

Have you considered a career as a demotivational speaker ?

(Meant in jest, I enjoy the debate marton!)
" I might sign back on in 20 years " 20 years! You are Sleeping Beauty? I will send you a (virtual) kiss in the morning to restart the debate; not too early!
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