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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #6361  
Old 03.11.2016, 21:17
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Must admit I was surprised. Usually the Courts chicken out of making decisions that upset the political apple cart. Look at the fate of the various German court challenges to the EU like the one about euro bailouts.

Must mean the High Court see this as a very serious issue that they could not walk away from.
Will be interesting to see the Supreme Court view.
The English-Welsh courts (and U.K. courts in general) have gotten much more activist since Blair's legal reforms. The reforms we based heavily on US judicial organization and the result was more US-style judicial activism, especially as U.K. jurists are overwhelmingly EU-centric.
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  #6362  
Old 03.11.2016, 21:23
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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"Parliamentary representative democracy is not democratic." So you believe that having our sovereign Parliament voting on a topic is not Parliamentary representative democracy" Can you please explain?
I believe that Parliamentary democracy isn't democratic nor representative of what people want. Politicians by and large only vote or do whatever is best to further their own career. Unless of course you're Jeremy Corbyn. In short your average MP votes as follows:

1. The Party
2. Self interest
3. Lobby interests

The people count for nothing. Which is why I don't vote (this referendum being the exception). And why I say a little prayer every night before tucking my Swiss residence permit under my pillow.
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  #6363  
Old 03.11.2016, 21:25
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote "Theresa May has said she accepts the government will have to pass an act of parliament before it can trigger article 50, the formal process for leaving the European Union."

Confused? I am!

Source

No clue if this statement is 100% correct; I just know our leaders are losing credibility by the hour
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  #6364  
Old 03.11.2016, 21:28
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Bollocks!

This would most likely have not been the case if Cameron had stayed in office, because then it would have been a democratically elected PM triggering Article 50. This has mainly come about because, as I keep telling people but they didn't believe me, Theresa disMay IS NOT a democratically elected PM.
The ruling would have been exactly the same and assuming it will be upheld it has major ramifications for democracy in the U.K. going forward.

In parliament of Westminster style democracies PMs are not elected, they are invited to attempt to form a government by the Queen, her representative or in the case Ireland, the president. To the best of my knowledge the only former dominion that requires that the PM be an elected (as opposed to appointed) member of the legislature is Ireland.
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  #6365  
Old 03.11.2016, 21:30
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The English-Welsh courts (and U.K. courts in general) have gotten much more activist since Blair's legal reforms. The reforms we based heavily on US judicial organization and the result was more US-style judicial activism, especially as U.K. jurists are overwhelmingly EU-centric.
"especially as U.K. jurists are overwhelmingly EU-centric." Do you have a source for this`?
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  #6366  
Old 03.11.2016, 21:43
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Good article from the Indy right now pointing out what has often been said on this debate: that if there a revote now then remain would win, http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7395811.html

What is interesting is remain would win 51-49 on current surveys. So if we do force a second referendum and this is the result, how would the U.K. represent the wishes of the 49% ? We are, let us not forget, cintinually reminded that currently the losing 48%'s wishes are not being respected in the current leave process.
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  #6367  
Old 03.11.2016, 21:45
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The English-Welsh courts (and U.K. courts in general) have gotten much more activist since Blair's legal reforms. The reforms we based heavily on US judicial organization and the result was more US-style judicial activism, especially as U.K. jurists are overwhelmingly EU-centric.
Really and which specific cases are you referring to? And since the none three judicaries have authority to rule on a point of EU law again I'd to hear from you as to which cases you are referring?

The introduction of the U.K. Supreme Court in 2009 gave the U.K. the same split of legislature and judiciary seen in other parliament of Westminster style democracies, although because of devolved government and the existence of three jurisdictions it powers are somewhat more restricted.
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  #6368  
Old 03.11.2016, 21:49
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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"If that's not wining a vote I don't know what is." There was no vote! Repeat, no vote! You cannot win a vote that did not exist!
How can you keep insisting there was no vote when there clearly was? Or do those 199 MPs just exist in the etherworld as far as you're concerned.

Gordon Brown was the sole candidate when he was delcared leader of the Labour Party. So I guess that "vote" was invalid too.

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Quote "Theresa May has said she accepts the government will have to pass an act of parliament before it can trigger article 50, the formal process for leaving the European Union."

Confused? I am!

Source

No clue if this statement is 100% correct; I just know our leaders are losing credibility by the hour
Yes, if the court's decision is upheld by the Supreme Court. Please read the whole article and not just headlines.

"Asked whether the prime minister agreed with the Brexit secretary, David Davis, that if the judgment is upheld by the supreme court next month the government will have to put a bill before parliament, she said: “What David Davis was setting out is what would be a logical conclusion to draw from the judgment from today.”
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  #6369  
Old 03.11.2016, 21:52
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Quote "Theresa May has said she accepts the government will have to pass an act of parliament before it can trigger article 50, the formal process for leaving the European Union."

Confused? I am!

Source

No clue if this statement is 100% correct; I just know our leaders are losing credibility by the hour
Re-reading the article it could mean that if the Supreme Court rules the same as the High Court then May will accept the decision; which is non news really.
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  #6370  
Old 03.11.2016, 21:52
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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What is interesting is remain would win 51-49 on current surveys. So if we do force a second referendum and this is the result, how would the U.K. represent the wishes of the 49% ? We are, let us not forget, cintinually reminded that currently the losing 48%'s wishes are not being respected in the current leave process.
And the point of having a second non binding referendum would be??? The High Court just confirmed the U.K. Is governed by a sovereign parliament not a sovereign people.
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  #6371  
Old 03.11.2016, 21:54
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Good article from the Indy right now pointing out what has often been said on this debate: that if there a revote now then remain would win, http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7395811.html

What is interesting is remain would win 51-49 on current surveys. So if we do force a second referendum and this is the result, how would the U.K. represent the wishes of the 49% ? We are, let us not forget, cintinually reminded that currently the losing 48%'s wishes are not being respected in the current leave process.
I no longer believe any forecasts related to Brexit
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  #6372  
Old 03.11.2016, 21:59
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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And the point of having a second non binding referendum would be??? The High Court just confirmed the U.K. Is governed by a sovereign parliament not a sovereign people.
Your right. There wouldn't be any. In fact given that it was mainly Scotland and London that voted to stay and lots and lots of the midlands and the north of England voted leave the leave decision would have been much easier to get to if we had just had the mp's vote to start with. Still makes me wonder why people keep banging on about the wishes of the 48% who were on the 'losing' side being ignored this time, because as you say, it doesn't really matter what they think. The only thing that matters is mp's legally speaking.
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  #6373  
Old 03.11.2016, 22:50
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The parliament actually made the referendum consultative - meaning it was an opinion poll. If they had wanted the people to make the decision it would have been binding one assumes.
Perhaps that's not even possible, the voters are the monarch's subjects, they're not the Sovereign. The monarch is the Sovereign.
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  #6374  
Old 03.11.2016, 23:09
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Perhaps that's not even possible, the voters are the monarch's subjects, they're not the Sovereign. The monarch is the Sovereign.
It's sounding like a dictatorship to me.
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  #6375  
Old 03.11.2016, 23:11
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Good article from the Indy right now pointing out what has often been said on this debate: that if there a revote now then remain would win, http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7395811.html

What is interesting is remain would win 51-49 on current surveys. So if we do force a second referendum and this is the result, how would the U.K. represent the wishes of the 49% ? We are, let us not forget, cintinually reminded that currently the losing 48%'s wishes are not being respected in the current leave process.
Believe what you will. Iirc all the polls were predicting Remain would win by a fairly large margin last time around and were proved wrong.

And what wishes do you think should be respected? The UK operates on a majority voting system, what the "losers" may wish for doesn't come into consideration. Never has and never will. Did the minority who voted no to continuing in the Common Market in 1975 get any consideration? No.

If Remain had won do you think Mr. Cameron would have gone back to the EU and tried to win more concessions on controlling immigration from the EU, looser ties between EU countries, etc, to make the Leave voters more happy? No, he would have gotten what he wanted and it would be carry on and never mind those who lost.

The only reason the subject keeps getting brought up is because the goverment/politicians didn't get the result they wanted or expected. If the vote had been the other way around we'd all be busy discussing other things, having put the vote out of our minds by now. It's way past time for the "losers" to do just that and let the goverment get on with triggering Article 50 and taking us out of the EU.
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  #6376  
Old 03.11.2016, 23:20
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Calm down, dears – Article 50 is still going to happen

Despite claims to the contrary, there was only ever one purpose in trying to force the Government to secure Parliamentary approval for triggering Article 50: offering Continuity Remainers (as distinct from the majority of Remainers who accept the democratic result) an opportunity to frustrate or even prevent Brexit.

Now that the Government has lost the case in the High Court, what does that mean for the prospect of whether, when and on what terms we will leave the EU?

There’ll be a lot of heat generated, both my Continuity Remainers hoping this means Brexit won’t happen and by worried Leavers frustrated at the prospect of their great victory being stymied. But shedding some light on the outcome suggests that not a huge amount has actually changed.

First, it’s worth noting that the Government intends to appeal to the Supreme Court. They may believe they have other, better arguments, and/or that their lawyers fluffed the case. It’s always possible the Supreme Court will overturn the High Court’s ruling, in which case everything would proceed on the Prime Minister’s preferred timetable of a March date for triggering Article 50.

Second, anyone who thinks MPs will reject Article 50 in such a vote is deluding themselves. The overwhelming majority of the Parliamentary Conservative Party now wants to get on with implementing the outcome of the referendum, regardless of which side they were on in the campaign. A pleasantly surprising number of Labour MPs have also taken on board the message from their Leave-voting constituencies. Having gone through the unpleasant experience of being at loggerheads with their voters on the doorstep, they rightly don’t want to defy them now they have spoken. The referendum may have been advisory, but its advice was clear – and when seen in pseudo-First Past The Post terms, ie in terms of MPs’ constituencies, Leave won a two thirds majority. Ultimately, de facto sovereignty lies with the electorate, and politicians value their seats.

Despite some of the more overexcited commentary, nor does the court judgment put MPs in charge of the eventual Brexit deal. Some observers seem to have forgotten what Article 50 actually is. It is simply the trigger for starting the exit process, after which talks will take place and then, eventually, our post-EU relationship will be decided. There might be a debate if and when an Article 50 vote happens, in which case the usual suspects will no doubt take the opportunity to hold forth about their preferred relationship with Brussels, but ultimately MPs will be voting simply on the fact of our leaving the EU.

It is possible that someone will try to mount an attempt to introduce an amendment into the motion being voted on – say, one that declares an intention to stay in the Single Market. Here there are technical questions of procedure that are yet to be answered – will Article 50 now be triggered by a Bill, which is freely open to amendments, or by a motion, which enjoys a few extra protections? Again, though, the Commons arithmetic as well as the political pressure would seem to counsel against it, even if MPs of various parties and disparate views did get their act together to co-ordinate such an attempt.

Where all this might have a more real impact is in the timescale of triggering Article 50. Presumably while mounting their Supreme Court appeal, the Government will be getting on in the background with working out its plan for a vote if it loses again. Getting it into the Commons and, I expect, getting it through the Commons ought not to take too long, particularly if it’s a motion rather than a Bill.

The House of Lords could bog the process down for longer. For a start, the number of europhiles in the Upper Chamber is so high that it makes the Commons look representative on the issue by comparison – we can expect the Kinnocks of the world to do everything they can to frustrate the progress of Article 50. Just as importantly, they are of course unelected and thus immune to the political motivation of 17.4 million voters breathing down their necks.

It would still be a highly questionable move for an unelected chamber to try to pit itself directly against the outcome of a referendum which won the backing of more voters than any other issue or party in British political history. Doing so would threaten the legitimacy of the Lords, as well as run the risk of May calling a General Election to assert her mandate – an election which would surely spell disaster for the Labour Party in particular. Nonetheless, they may yet try it.

In short, this judgment doesn’t have half the impact some people on each side seem to believe. Article 50 will still go ahead, and we will still leave the EU. There’ll no doubt be more battles to come, but when was that not the case?
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  #6377  
Old 03.11.2016, 23:21
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

CAlm down dears indeed - as BoJo tells the public last night that Brexit will be a Titanic success you really couldn't make this tuff up, really
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  #6378  
Old 03.11.2016, 23:28
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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It's sounding like a dictatorship to me.
Actually that's what it would be if there was no constitution, though it would go by a different name.

The UK is a constitutional monarchy with democratic elements, it's not a democracy. That's why the people are Her Majesty's subjects, they're not citizens. As a consequence the people don't give orders in an absolute sense as they would in a CH-style democracy, hence it may be that parliament can't make a referendum binding before the fact even it wanted to.
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Old 04.11.2016, 00:41
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

MPs revive Tribune group to pitch Labour as a “party of government”

The Tribune group appear to intend to oppose Brexit.
The Great Unravelling
"We stand on the verge of a Great Unravelling with untold consequences for our economy, our society, our place in the world and our souls. It is time to raise the standard and return fire. We make the case for a reimagined Britain and its membership of the EU. We say not what we are against but what we stand for. As events unfold it is a political opportunity that must be seized – the chance to remake a party and a country. We want our country back. We have to start working for it now."
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Old 04.11.2016, 01:08
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Aww thanks for letting us know that you've calmed down now. You do jump to conclusions and let yourself get all aeriated over the slightest little thing when you believe you're not going to get your own way.

Night night sweet dreams Loz. Go and let your little head unwind all the fuss and bother of the day
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