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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #6381  
Old 04.11.2016, 09:56
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The UK operates on a majority voting system
No it doesn't. The UK operates on a First Past the Post system which is very much not a majority system. Apart from a couple of coalitions (or similar)there hasn't been a government in my lifetime that has had the direct voting support of a majority of the voters
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  #6382  
Old 04.11.2016, 09:57
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Believe what you will. Iirc all the polls were predicting Remain would win by a fairly large margin last time around and were proved wrong.

And what wishes do you think should be respected? The UK operates on a majority voting system, what the "losers" may wish for doesn't come into consideration. Never has and never will. Did the minority who voted no to continuing in the Common Market in 1975 get any consideration? No.

If Remain had won do you think Mr. Cameron would have gone back to the EU and tried to win more concessions on controlling immigration from the EU, looser ties between EU countries, etc, to make the Leave voters more happy? No, he would have gotten what he wanted and it would be carry on and never mind those who lost.

The only reason the subject keeps getting brought up is because the goverment/politicians didn't get the result they wanted or expected. If the vote had been the other way around we'd all be busy discussing other things, having put the vote out of our minds by now. It's way past time for the "losers" to do just that and let the goverment get on with triggering Article 50 and taking us out of the EU.
Yes thats what I mean - while the result was as it is 52-48, we have heard no end of moaning about "what about the rights of those 48% they must be heard" endless times. I agree with your point - its the result that counts - but now we have a question mark over the proces I was just raising it to demonstrate how ridiculous the point is. if we reran and it voted 51-49 remain would the wishes of the 49% be heard, of course not.
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  #6383  
Old 04.11.2016, 10:31
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Good Lord.. This is incitement for another Jo Cox nutter

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  #6384  
Old 04.11.2016, 10:38
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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No it doesn't. The UK operates on a First Past the Post system which is very much not a majority system. Apart from a couple of coalitions (or similar)there hasn't been a government in my lifetime that has had the direct voting support of a majority of the voters
For the purpose of a referendum it's a majority vote. For general elections yes it's First Past the Post.
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  #6385  
Old 04.11.2016, 10:55
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Good Lord.. This is incitement for another Jo Cox nutter
Encouraging people to believe the law of the land is not valid should be treason; this sort of journalism could cause people to believe that they are justified to commit all kinds of antisocial acts.
It could also be interpreted as a an attempt to intimidate the Supreme Court.

Basically I blame May.
If she had said at the beginning that it is the law that it needs Parliament to invoke Art. 50 then there would have been some unhappiness around but I doubt at this extreme level.
Invoking the Royal prerogative for a major constitutional change is hardly a well trodden path. I wonder if she foresaw this whole scenario and how she could benefit from it?

Whatever the Supreme Court decides there will be many many more unhappy people around than heretofore.
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  #6386  
Old 04.11.2016, 10:59
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Good Lord.. This is incitement for another Jo Cox nutter
That's terrible. Her killer is supposed to be going on trial this month too ("a three-week trial has been listed to start from November 14" source). It's shocking that her killing just seems to have been shrugged off. Farage hasn't mentioned (or suggested?) violence as he did a couple of weeks before her murder (source), but has implied it: "They have no idea level of public anger they will provoke" (Twitter).
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  #6387  
Old 04.11.2016, 11:54
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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That's terrible. Her killer is supposed to be going on trial this month too ("a three-week trial has been listed to start from November 14" source). It's shocking that her killing just seems to have been shrugged off. Farage hasn't mentioned (or suggested?) violence as he did a couple of weeks before her murder (source), but has implied it: "They have no idea level of public anger they will provoke" (Twitter).
I completely agree with the Mail bit. for the Farage line I think thats interpretation, he's not inciting violence, he is telling the truth I would say of the man on the street. If you think about in the main what the leave voters were, they were (in the majority, not all) from poor working class midland and northern areas, who felt that the wealthy people of London and the London-centric Governamen had ignored them, not invested, focused on the south. That was the view, whether it was right or not is another question.

the vote came along and it was the chance for the working class to give the Elite who were treading on them for the past 15 yeras a kick in the teeth, so they had a vote, which said on the paper "the Government will do what you indicate" and they ticket "leave". Despite the very knowledgable people on Ef pointing out "well they cant really do that, its only advisory" etc to the bloke on the street in blackburn, he voted leave.

Leave Won. Blackburn man was chuffed to bits, he'd beaten the Rich London Set for the first time in 20 years.

Except now, one of the Rich London Set has started legal proceedings to say it wasnt legal, that a vote is needed, that "its not about stopping the process its about following the correct procedures".

in london, that might sound great. if i was a bloke on the street in Blackburn I'd be foaming at the mouth with rage.
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  #6388  
Old 04.11.2016, 12:12
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

There's something quite hilarious about those, mainly of a Guardian reading disposition, celebrating a 400 year old law that was introduced by nobles to keep the peasants in check, today being used to put the plebs in their place.
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  #6389  
Old 04.11.2016, 12:38
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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There's something quite hilarious about those, mainly of a Guardian reading disposition, celebrating a 400 year old law that was introduced by nobles to keep the peasants in check, today being used to put the plebs in their place.
People might respect you if you didn't write such idiotic things. Read about the Bill of Rights, and you will see it is everything except keeping the peasants down.
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  #6390  
Old 04.11.2016, 12:38
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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...in the main what the leave voters were, they were (in the majority, not all) from poor working class midland and northern areas...
Do you have evidence for this? The results map for England/Wales showed most of it for Leave. That's much more than the midlands and the north and I have difficulty believing that most people in England/Wales are working class/left behind. There's also the fact that Scotland/Northern Ireland voted completely differently from England/Wales and it seems unlikely that most of their inhabitants are wealthy.

According to this, it was support for "traditional values", including the death penalty, that drove the vote for Leave rather than social class or income.
The link between Brexit and the death penalty
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  #6391  
Old 04.11.2016, 12:42
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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People might respect you if you didn't write such idiotic things. Read about the Bill of Rights, and you will see it is everything except keeping the peasants down.
How about you open your history books and have a look at just how many peasants were allowed to vote in 1689.
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  #6392  
Old 04.11.2016, 12:46
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Do you have evidence for this? The results map for England/Wales showed most of it for Leave. That's much more than the midlands and the north and I have difficulty believing that most people in England/Wales are working class/left behind. There's also the fact that Scotland/Northern Ireland voted completely differently from England/Wales and it seems unlikely that most of their inhabitants are wealthy.

According to this, it was support for "traditional values", including the death penalty, that drove the vote for Leave rather than social class or income.
The link between Brexit and the death penalty
social:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...-social-class/

geographic:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...s-and-analysis
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Old 04.11.2016, 12:47
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

It's just sad, embarrassing and jaw-droppingly awful the way things have got out of hand. The media (by which I mean ALL the media) is having an absolute field day shit-stirring to astronomical levels, seemingly to out-do each other to sell more and more copy or advertising space to line the pockets of the shareholders.

Speaking of lining pockets, the only people who will benefit from this utter car crash of egos and red tape will be the lawyers and their legal teams joyfully tying up the process for years and years of unlimited billing and expenses.

Jesus H Christ, what an utter embarrassment.
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  #6394  
Old 04.11.2016, 12:50
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Theresa May and the leave supporters have nothing to fear: the date for activating Article 50 has been set back a month or so, but now the whole thing will be debated in Parliament and the result will be on a solid legal footing enabling the result to be accepted by everyone. Otherwise, about half the population would be unhappy with the Article 50 action.

It seems that since the referendum the House of Commons has swung from supporting the idea of remaining in the EU to sympathy for leaving the EU and so the referendum result is indeed being respected by the MPs.

I think the Daily Mail editor should be prosecuted with something. That is a disgraceful incitement to violence, and completely unnecessary.
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Old 04.11.2016, 12:51
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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According to this, it was support for "traditional values", including the death penalty, that drove the vote for Leave rather than social class or income.
The link between Brexit and the death penalty
Was talking this over with one of my three friends who voted Leave on fb last night. He dad butted into the conversation with...

"It's alright for you. You've left this shithole of a country. I'd love to move to Africa but there's no need now because half of Africa have moved here."

My friend was very embarrassed by this as she's met my OH but didn't realise he's African. Don't underestimate the racist overtones in this country now. I've only been back for 4 days and the air reeks of it, and as I've said before here, I'm deliberately not giving work to people who come out with this crap. They have the right to believe what they want. I have the right to make damned sure not a single penny of my money goes into their pockets.
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  #6396  
Old 04.11.2016, 13:05
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Theresa May and the leave supporters have nothing to fear: the date for activating Article 50 has been set back a month or so, but now the whole thing will be debated in Parliament and the result will be on a solid legal footing enabling the result to be accepted by everyone. Otherwise, about half the population would be unhappy with the Article 50 action.
Well is sort of depends on:
- How long the debate lasts
- How long the Lords delay it
- If Scotland kicks off about the Sewel convention
- And of course some concerned citizen (subject) deciding to challenge the new law in the courts.

I'd say a month is very optimistic!
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  #6397  
Old 04.11.2016, 13:11
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Well is sort of depends on:
- How long the debate lasts
- How long the Lords delay it
- If Scotland kicks off about the Sewel convention
- And of course some concerned citizen (subject) deciding to challenge the new law in the courts.

I'd say a month is very optimistic!
I think that's what everyone fears Jim! This could turn into a real motorway pile up.
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  #6398  
Old 04.11.2016, 13:17
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Theresa May and the leave supporters have nothing to fear: the date for activating Article 50 has been set back a month or so, but now the whole thing will be debated in Parliament and the result will be on a solid legal footing enabling the result to be accepted by everyone. Otherwise, about half the population would be unhappy with the Article 50 action.

It seems that since the referendum the House of Commons has swung from supporting the idea of remaining in the EU to sympathy for leaving the EU and so the referendum result is indeed being respected by the MPs.

I think the Daily Mail editor should be prosecuted with something. That is a disgraceful incitement to violence, and completely unnecessary.
It's not really any worse than what they normally print.
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Old 04.11.2016, 13:22
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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It's not really any worse than what they normally print.
They even managed to squeeze in the value of their houses. Good old Daily Mail doesn't disappoint...

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Old 04.11.2016, 13:23
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Thanks for those. So the conclusion could be that people in Scotland and Northern Ireland are overall wealthier and better educated than people in England and Wales. But the Scots apparently earn less than the UK average (source). As to education levels, it doesn't look as if Scotland is in a better position:
"School pupils results in the last year of compulsory education show that England, which lagged Scotland in 1998/99, had caught up with and overtaken Scotland by 2006/07, see Table 3A. This relative improvement has come about through a considerable raising of the English results while those for Scotland have remained largely unchanged. Both Wales and Northern Ireland have also seen improvements over time, although not as dramatic as for England."
http://www.gla.ac.uk/media/media_133107_en.pdf

That suggests that the difference in the referendum result between Scotland and England/Wales must be accounted for by something else.
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