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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #6461  
Old 07.11.2016, 14:55
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I've read this but agree fully with the point of view expressed in the tabloid newspapers which is fundamentally about flaws in the English legal system which has led to judges making inappropriate judgements on issues of importance by failing to consider the political impact of their decisions.
That's exactly not what the judicial arm is to do. It's up to parliament to consider consequences and political impact in their legislating.
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England is a parliamentary democracy which means that whereas the "will of the people" is not paramount, it is extremely important.
Except it isn't.

The UK, which is short for United Kingdom, is a constitutional monarchy with democratic elements.

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Simple solution in this case, assuming the appeal isn't successful:

Have the MPs vote for Brexit according to what their constituents voted for (this information is available).
Implement constitutional change asap to make all future referendums binding.

Problem solved.
That would probably mean abolishing all political privileges that come with nobility, including getting rid of royalty as a political entity and of the House of Lords as it exists (perhaps changing it into some sort of 2nd chamber). In short, convert the UK into a democracy, including changing its name as it would no longer be a kingdom. You won't get that on short notice, if at all.
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  #6462  
Old 07.11.2016, 15:26
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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That would probably mean abolishing all political privileges that come with nobility, including getting rid of royalty as a political entity and of the House of Lords as it exists (perhaps changing it into some sort of 2nd chamber). In short, convert the UK into a democracy, including changing its name as it would no longer be a kingdom. You won't get that on short notice, if at all.
I'd take all that.

But I agree, it's never going to happen. We can wish though.
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  #6463  
Old 07.11.2016, 18:20
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I've read this but agree fully with the point of view expressed in the tabloid newspapers which is fundamentally about flaws in the English legal system which has led to judges making inappropriate judgements on issues of importance by failing to consider the political impact of their decisions.

This stems from an archaic system which has artificially split the function of government across the areas of executive, legislature and judiciary and reducing the role of the monarch to a mere figurehead. This results in all sorts of inefficiencies which hamper the daily business of government, adding all sorts of impediments to solving problems and the general improvement of the lot of the people. The prime minister cannot even embark on the right course of action without having to consider a lot of tiresome procedures and processes which bring all sorts of unpredictable barriers and delays along the way, inhibiting progress.
Trial by jury is, incidentally, another of those legal relics of the past which adds an unpredictable element to a trial with the potential to result in the wrong judgement.

England is a parliamentary democracy which means that whereas the "will of the people" is not paramount, it is extremely important. That is, extremely important at election time. That is why election time has a sort of magical character where there is talk of the benefits which are to be bestowed on people of all walks of life: higher pensions, increased coal allowances, lower pension age, shorter working week for the same pay, more money for the health service, less foreigners and other undesirables, more markets for our goods and services, less competition from abroad etc. etc.
After that is all over, the "will of the people" still has an important function, namely as a pretext for any chosen course of action by those who have succeeded in their primary goal of navigating through the election process and obtaining a position of power at the end. That is, of course, as long as those courses of action are not sabotaged by an interfering judiciary or clumsy legislature.

Removing the House of Lords as the final arbiter and last stage of the legal appeals process, and replacing it with the Supreme Court was an important first step in addressing these inefficiencies and delays in the due process of government. The next important step would be to run the Supreme Court out of Downing Street and expand its role to monitoring the performance of courts and judges, ensuring that budgets are upheld (including the remuneration of judges). This new role would naturally also extend to running a help desk for judges seeking clarification of the likely political impact of any judgements they are about to make and to provide interpretations of ambiguous legal formulations where the legislation may not have accurately reflected the will of parliament. Included in the function of the Supreme Court Help Desk would be to provide information packs to selected friendly media and press outlets, guiding them in the understanding of unfolding cases, so these can correctly present how the "will of the people" is being served.

I fully understand the frustration that Theresa May is suffering in her implementation of her BREXIT plans. She would (in more enlightened times) have been able to follow the example of Henry the VIII of England in his Exit from the Catholic Church with, in the the face of all that tiresome and systematic resistance, the simple expedient of an axe and a chopping block.
You clearly fail to understand the principle of the separation of powers.

The principle of separation of powers states that the executive, legislative, and judiciary powers of government should be divided into different branches and not concentrated in one.
These departments should be separate and distinct because of the corrupting nature of power.

The UK is not alone in this approach, democratic countries do this.

You only have to look at the example of Turkey to see how power can be abused by blurring this situation.

Allowing May to push through major changes without Parliament is the first step down a slippery path
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  #6464  
Old 07.11.2016, 20:40
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Glad to see that the CPS agrees that those promises on red bus were fraudulent and illegal and meant to deceive and influence votes:

It is illegal under the 1983 Representation of the People Act to use "any fraudulent device or contrivance" to have an "undue influence" on voters.
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  #6465  
Old 07.11.2016, 21:17
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Glad to see that the CPS agrees that those promises on red bus were fraudulent and illegal and meant to deceive and influence votes:

It is illegal under the 1983 Representation of the People Act to use "any fraudulent device or contrivance" to have an "undue influence" on voters.
Here is the link
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  #6466  
Old 07.11.2016, 21:19
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Glad to see that the CPS agrees that those promises on red bus were fraudulent and illegal and meant to deceive and influence votes:

It is illegal under the 1983 Representation of the People Act to use "any fraudulent device or contrivance" to have an "undue influence" on voters.
You're obsessed with those busses.

I predict now that this will go nowhere. If it does then the CPS can move on and investigate the government for promising to "implement what you decide".
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  #6467  
Old 07.11.2016, 21:33
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Allowing May to push through major changes without Parliament is the first step down a slippery path
It's apparent that Empress disMay isn't a dab hand at HTML coding, which is as basic as it gets. If it takes an Act Of Parliament to begin something, then it tales the same to end it, and Article 50 = / in this instance.

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Britain Joins the European Economic Community. The Treaty was signed by Edward Heath, the British Prime Minister, in Brussels on 22 January 1972. The European Communities Bill was then introduced in the House of Commons to give parliamentary assent to Britain's membership of the EEC.
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  #6468  
Old 07.11.2016, 21:39
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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You're obsessed with those busses.

I predict now that this will go nowhere. If it does then the CPS can move on and investigate the government for promising to "implement what you decide".
But that was Cameron's government and he's probably on his holibobs. If you buy a lawnmower from B&Q and it doesn't work, you don't go to Screwfix to demand a refund.
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  #6469  
Old 07.11.2016, 21:55
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Glad to see that the CPS agrees that those promises on red bus were fraudulent and illegal and meant to deceive and influence votes:
The CPS does nothing of the sort. It's investigating a complaint that has been filed. At the moment it neither agrees or disagrees. Please read Marton's link.

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It's apparent that Empress disMay isn't a dab hand at HTML coding, which is as basic as it gets. If it takes an Act Of Parliament to begin something, then it tales the same to end it, and Article 50 = / in this instance.
"Britain Joins the European Economic Community. The Treaty was signed by Edward Heath, the British Prime Minister, in Brussels on 22 January 1972. The European Communities Bill was then introduced in the House of Commons to give parliamentary assent to Britain's membership of the EEC."

Incorrect as first Edward Heath signed the Treaty binding us to join the EEC, second Parliament debated the bill. Heath used exactly the same Royal perogative powers to take us into the EEC as May is proposing to use to take us out. May triggers Article 50 then Parliament introduces and debates the necessary bill/s.
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  #6470  
Old 07.11.2016, 22:32
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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You're obsessed with those busses.

no no, there was nought wrong with them busses- only the fraudulent 'advert' on them.
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  #6471  
Old 07.11.2016, 22:54
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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no no, there was nought wrong with them busses- only the fraudulent 'advert' on them.
Where's the fraud? The slogan said:

"We send the EU £350 a week, let's fund our NHS instead"

There was no promise, no fraud, it was merely a suggestion of what could be done.
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  #6472  
Old 07.11.2016, 23:09
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The CPS does nothing of the sort. It's investigating a complaint that has been filed. At the moment it neither agrees or disagrees. Please read Marton's link.



"Britain Joins the European Economic Community. The Treaty was signed by Edward Heath, the British Prime Minister, in Brussels on 22 January 1972. The European Communities Bill was then introduced in the House of Commons to give parliamentary assent to Britain's membership of the EEC."

Incorrect as first Edward Heath signed the Treaty binding us to join the EEC, second Parliament debated the bill. Heath used exactly the same Royal perogative powers to take us into the EEC as May is proposing to use to take us out. May triggers Article 50 then Parliament introduces and debates the necessary bill/s.
The Treaty was signed by Edward Heath, the British Prime Minister, in Brussels on 22 January 1972.
UK officially joined EEC on 1 January 1973
So does that mean Heath could have withdrawn his signature if Parliament did not sign up?
Whereas I assume invoking Art. 50 is not revocable?
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  #6473  
Old 07.11.2016, 23:11
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

A current poll shows 31% of those who voted leave now regret it. Wow.
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  #6474  
Old 07.11.2016, 23:14
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Incorrect as first Edward Heath signed the Treaty binding us to join the EEC, second Parliament debated the bill. Heath used exactly the same Royal perogative powers to take us into the EEC as May is proposing to use to take us out. May triggers Article 50 then Parliament introduces and debates the necessary bill/s.
Nope. You reverse the process. It's the same as marriage and divorce.

Heath signed the Treaty = get engaged
Parliamentary vote = both families approve
Referendum = Wedding

Now reverse the steps...

File for divorce = referendum result
Decree Nisi = Parliamentary vote
Decree Absolute = Triggering Article 50 (point of no return)
Following two years = financial settlement.
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  #6475  
Old 07.11.2016, 23:26
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Where's the fraud? The slogan said:

"We send the EU £350 a week, let's fund our NHS instead"

There was no promise, no fraud, it was merely a suggestion of what could be done.
The CPS agrees that it was worded to give the wrong impression. No business could get away from such advertising or selling techniques. But it was not 'just' the bus it was the leave campaign website and other TV interviews- which made the promise much more directlyand without any doubt whatsoever in the wording.

The official Leave campaign has wiped almost its entire website from the internet. The site – which previously included the suggestion that the EU budget of £350m a week would be sent back to the NHS and included promises about trade deals – now just has a message thanking supporters.
The promises of Leave campaigners have come under scrutiny since the UK voted in June, with leading politicians walking back promises over immigration control, NHS spending and the speed that Brexit will be undertaken.
Now all of those promises have been removed from the official site. The site now just has a message reading “Thank You” at the top.

I wonder why?
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  #6476  
Old 07.11.2016, 23:28
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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A current poll shows 31% of those who voted leave now regret it. Wow.
I know several people who voted remain, would vote to leave if there was a second vote. I don't know anyone who voted leave who regrets it.

You just need to look at the FTSE 100 index to realise leaving will be good for British.
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  #6477  
Old 07.11.2016, 23:32
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

You obviously know the wrong people

4.2 % voted t'other way round (eg voted remain and would now vote leave).
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  #6478  
Old 07.11.2016, 23:33
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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A current poll shows 31% of those who voted leave now regret it. Wow.
Even if it's only 5% across the board, it doesn't surprise me.

Had my builders complaining last week that the cost of living's going up but wages aren't. The roofer at the weekend said he's grabbing all the work he can whilst people still have the spare cash to get jobs done on their houses. He's already seen work requests dropping off more than usual for this time of year. Can't get hold of the landscaper because he's gone to Germany doing a contract there whilst he still can (for his ex-pat uncle and other English friends). And my regular weekend shop has gone up almost £2 since the last week of September. There's now only a couple of quid difference between the cost of it here and in Zurich. And to top it all off, heard on Friday that another group of former colleagues are being made redundant in March.

It's not all doom and gloom, but quite a few people are jittery about the future, particularly one of my Leave friends who is shocked at what has happened since. Mind you, she did say "I thought we'd be out by now" Some people never read the small print.
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  #6479  
Old 07.11.2016, 23:36
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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A current poll shows 31% of those who voted leave now regret it. Wow.
And virtually all polls predicted a Remain victory and a hung parliament in the 2015 general election. Poll are becoming meaningless.
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  #6480  
Old 07.11.2016, 23:49
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Well I get your point - polls were indeed pretty close.

31.4 against 4.2 is a bit more convincing that 48 / 52 though, no?
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