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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #6621  
Old 15.11.2016, 12:01
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Does it mean that well thought out and masterminded plan called "no plan is the best plan" applies here too?

'There is no plan' for Brexit, leaked memo says
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37983948
This is in most UK newspapers; Guardian, ft, Telegraph for alternate reports..

It has been obvious for some time that there is no single agreed Brexit plan.

Quote:
It identified a tendency by Theresa May to “draw in decisions and settle matters herself” as a strategy that cannot be sustained, and highlighted a split between the three Brexit ministers – Liam Fox, Boris Johnson and David Davis – and the chancellor, Philip Hammond, and his ally Greg Clark, the business secretary.
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The note found that departments are working on more than 500 projects related to leaving the EU and may need to hire an extra 30,000 civil servants to deal with the additional burden of work.
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The memo suggests it will take another six months before the government decides what it wants to achieve from Brexit or agrees on its priorities.
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The memo said big businesses could soon “point a gun at the government’s head” to secure what they need to maintain jobs and investment. The government’s recent concessions to Nissan over its future investment plans in Sunderland suggest that process is already under way.
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  #6622  
Old 15.11.2016, 12:05
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I think they just need to figure out how they are going to cover the costs. Recent history shows that any major (or minor, for that matter) national administrative venture runs wildly over budget, zooms past its deadline and ends up getting shelved or scrapped.

Maybe the 30,000 new staff is a conservative estimate (easier to round down again rather than round up after the fact) but if that is the figure they are working on, the budget must be astronomical.

I can see it being farmed out to private companies who will do their best to draw it out and squeeze out more funds.

Never mind - 350 million a week for the NHS, right..?
Looks like the Govt. is squeezing NHS funding to find the extra money to pay for Brexit, this is a top irony day!

Seems there will be a statement in the Autumn budget about money for Brexit work but I doubt they will have the balls to state the real amount!
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  #6623  
Old 15.11.2016, 12:11
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Looks like the Govt. is squeezing NHS funding to find the extra money to pay for Brexit, this is a top irony day!

Seems there will be a statement in the Autumn budget about money for Brexit work but I doubt they will have the balls to state the real amount!
I heard on the (radio) news this morning that they wouldn't be announcing anything this year as regards budgets for Brexit. I'll try to find the right link.
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  #6624  
Old 15.11.2016, 12:16
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I think they just need to figure out how they are going to cover the costs. Recent history shows that any major (or minor, for that matter) national administrative venture runs wildly over budget, zooms past its deadline and ends up getting shelved or scrapped.

Maybe the 30,000 new staff is a conservative estimate (easier to round down again rather than round up after the fact) but if that is the figure they are working on, the budget must be astronomical.

I can see it being farmed out to private companies who will do their best to draw it out and squeeze out more funds.

Never mind - 350 million a week for the NHS, right..?
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This is in most UK newspapers; Guardian, ft, Telegraph for alternate reports..

It has been obvious for some time that there is no single agreed Brexit plan.
It's gonna be a good step in creating another 30,000 jobs which surely will decrease unemployment rate by 0.0000xx %, never mind to drain NHS funds.

It seems like it was unsolicited document leaked by private firm ...
Government 'doesn't recognise' Brexit memo
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37983948
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  #6625  
Old 15.11.2016, 12:30
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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It's gonna be a good step in creating another 30,000 jobs which surely will decrease unemployment rate by 0.0000xx %, never mind to drain NHS funds.

It seems like it was unsolicited document leaked by private firm ...
Government 'doesn't recognise' Brexit memo
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37983948
Sharks these consultants as soon as they can smell blood they see pound signs.

Bill as much as you can deliver as little as possible is the constant message with consultants and the UK government projects over the last 10 years or so.
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  #6626  
Old 15.11.2016, 12:35
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Sharks these consultants as soon as they can smell blood they see pound signs.

Bill as much as you can deliver as little as possible is the constant message with consultants and the UK government projects over the last 10 years or so.
Added to this, you never know how many MPs might be on the boards and/or shareholders of these consulting companies. What goes around, comes around.
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  #6627  
Old 15.11.2016, 12:37
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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If you cast a vote aned thereby participate in an a vote, you are effectively approving the voting system. If you don't approve of the way votes are counted, or don't approve of the question being asked or the terms under which it ius being asked, the right thing to do is to not vote or spoil your ballot.

If I recall correctly, voter turnout was over 50%.
If "spoil the ballot" means handing it in yet not voting: I do that sometimes to make sure the "Wahlbeteiligung" (voter participation) shows my statement of refusing both options (well, I know one only won't show but even that droplet in the sea makes me feel better).
For example if 40% of the population actually votes and 30% of those vote for SVP-initiatives, they do not have 30% of the Swiss population on their side .... no matter how loud they claim they do.

As to <<If you cast a vote and thereby participate in an a vote, you are effectively approving the voting system>> I've been wondering about this with Brexit as well as the US-elections: All these protests, riats and calling the other side stupid afterwards. It's weird to me: If one can't live with it one has to aim at changing the system. We seem to know that here, they've tried it too (more signatures for a people initiative etc. etc.)

And since I learnt that the English vote is only advisory I definitely think the Brits should change their system - or forever hold their peace
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  #6628  
Old 15.11.2016, 12:42
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Sharks these consultants as soon as they can smell blood they see pound signs.

Bill as much as you can deliver as little as possible is the constant message with consultants and the UK government projects over the last 10 years or so.

10 years?? I worked on uk gov projects 20 years ago and it was the same then, the standard of work was laughably low even then, any normal business would never accept it, the stories I could tell you
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  #6629  
Old 15.11.2016, 12:53
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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It's gonna be a good step in creating another 30,000 jobs which surely will decrease unemployment rate by 0.0000xx %, never mind to drain NHS funds.

It seems like it was unsolicited document leaked by private firm ...
Government 'doesn't recognise' Brexit memo
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37983948
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10 years?? I worked on uk gov projects 20 years ago and it was the same then, the standard of work was laughably low even then, any normal business would never accept it, the stories I could tell you
Having also been involved in such Govt. projects a long time ago my guess would be that this memo was a response to a Govt. question sent to a number of consultancies already intimately involved with a number of departments.
The question would be along the lines of "assuming we will need support to complete Brexit then give us your ideas on the way forward to help us formulate our strategy. Your contacts for questions are ....".

Edit: basically it is sales document
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  #6630  
Old 15.11.2016, 12:59
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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We do need politicians.
Whose going to turn the street lights on at night?
Whose going to allocate funds for education, health care, the military, etc...
Whose going to deal with World leaders when they begin sabre rattling?

The list is endless, and I doubt you have the time, wit, knowledge or guile to do all of those tasks and make it home for dinner.
The only role for politicians should be to merely administrate and execute the will of the people. It works here, why shouldn't it work elsewhere?
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  #6631  
Old 15.11.2016, 13:10
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The only role for politicians should be to merely administrate and execute the will of the people. It works here, why shouldn't it work elsewhere?
Does not really work like that here.
There is a lot of stuff that was never the subject of a referendum and politicians have to make their own policies.
For example, almost all foreign policy outside of EU links, education, culture, sport, communications, etc.
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  #6632  
Old 15.11.2016, 13:18
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Does not really work like that here.
There is a lot of stuff that was never the subject of a referendum and politicians have to make their own policies.
For example, almost all foreign policy outside of EU links, education, culture, sport, communications, etc.
Yes, but for the major issues (and many minor ones too) there normally are referendums. I remember a few years back there was a referendum in Zürich for whether there should be mixed age group classes in Primary schools or not.

Take away the power from politicians, reduce them to administrators.
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  #6633  
Old 15.11.2016, 13:33
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Yes, but for the major issues (and many minor ones too) there normally are referendums. I remember a few years back there was a referendum in Zürich for whether there should be mixed age group classes in Primary schools or not.

Take away the power from politicians, reduce them to administrators.
There are between 8 and 10 national referendums per year.
There seven Bundesrat members, two hundred Nationalrat members, forty six Standerat members.

So you believe these two hundred and fifty three politicians are just administrators because we have 10 national referendums per year?

I also like the referendum system but it in no way replaces politicians, it is also a very slow and clumsy system.
If, for example, there were threats from Trump or Putin we could not wait a year or two before formulating a response.
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  #6634  
Old 15.11.2016, 13:42
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I can see it being farmed out to private companies who will do their best to draw it out and squeeze out more funds.

Never mind - 350 million a week for the NHS, right..?
For anyone who thinks the NHS may be dismantled in the future, this surely signals that our esteemed, revered Empress has already begun...

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Controversial £700m Virgin Care contract for adult social care approved

Unison said: ‘Employees need clear recognition from Virgin that a well-run health service means investment in staff’
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7411386.html
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  #6635  
Old 15.11.2016, 13:54
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The only role for politicians should be to merely administrate and execute the will of the people. It works here, why shouldn't it work elsewhere?
Ok, I get that you prefer direct democracy. It has many advantages, but how to introduce it the UK with a populace whose nearest experience to that is voting in reality tv shows? One referendum and they haven't shut up since. One! Can you begin to imagine the backlash if it were 8-10 compulsory referendums per year? No doubt some would relish the opportunity, but do you really think the majority would? We're a politically lazy nation.

It may happen, but not in our lifetime.
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  #6636  
Old 15.11.2016, 15:05
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Ok, I get that you prefer direct democracy. It has many advantages, but how to introduce it the UK with a populace whose nearest experience to that is voting in reality tv shows? One referendum and they haven't shut up since. One! Can you begin to imagine the backlash if it were 8-10 compulsory referendums per year? No doubt some would relish the opportunity, but do you really think the majority would? We're a politically lazy nation.

It may happen, but not in our lifetime.
I expect there were people who thought like that when democracy was first introduced.

Change takes time but you've got to start somewhere.

Yes, i agree, the first dabbling into referendums was a bit problematic. Maybe they should have started with a less fundamental question and built it up. A political culture of the type we have in Switzerland doesn't spring up overnight but gets to be that way because people take an appropriate interest in politics and understand how things work. If you look at Swiss history you will see things weren't always the way they are now.
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  #6637  
Old 15.11.2016, 15:15
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I expect there were people who thought like that when democracy was first introduced.

Change takes time but you've got to start somewhere.

Yes, i agree, the first dabbling into referendums was a bit problematic. Maybe they should have started with a less fundamental question and built it up. A political culture of the type we have in Switzerland doesn't spring up overnight but gets to be that way because people take an appropriate interest in politics and understand how things work. If you look at Swiss history you will see things weren't always the way they are now.
Referendums are OK for setting policies or answering specific questions but they are useless as a way to quickly respond to external influences or emergencies.
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  #6638  
Old 15.11.2016, 15:35
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Referendums are OK for setting policies or answering specific questions but they are useless as a way to quickly respond to external influences or emergencies.
The Brexit vote was hardly a response to an emergency though, was it?
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  #6639  
Old 15.11.2016, 17:18
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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A political culture of the type we have in Switzerland doesn't spring up overnight but gets to be that way because people take an appropriate interest in politics and understand how things work. If you look at Swiss history you will see things weren't always the way they are now.
I've read quite a bit about Swiss history, politics and culture over the past year...for obvious reasons...and finally know more than my OH who lived in Switzerland for 2yrs previously.

The Swiss people know their value and their place in the World. They're not expansionists. They do their national service without question and are overly prepared for outside aggression, but they're also neutral and I think that's the deciding factor which allows direct democracy to thrive here.

Honestly, I feel a system like that in the UK wouldn't be like herding cats, it would be like juggling with cats.
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  #6640  
Old 15.11.2016, 17:22
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I've read quite a bit about Swiss history, politics and culture over the past year...for obvious reasons...and finally know more than my OH who lived in Switzerland for 2yrs previously.

The Swiss people know their value and their place in the World. They're not expansionists. They do their national service without question and are overly prepared for outside aggression, but they're also neutral and I think that's the deciding factor which allows direct democracy to thrive here.

Honestly, I feel a system like that in the UK wouldn't be like herding cats, it would be like juggling with cats.
I think the world might be a better place if more countries strived to be a little more like Switzerland.

Our expansionist attitudes in the recent and more distant past have brought out the worst in us rather than the best.
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