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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1521  
Old 22.06.2016, 20:17
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Re: Anyone watching the Great Debate on BBC

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You are suggesting that if Britain leaves the EU, he should go from a country not in the EU, back to another country not in the EU, because he doesn't support the EU?


Eh?
Yes indeed, leave that non EU country which has taken years to negotiate trade deals with the EU- and had to accept free movement of people from EU - which has allowed most EU expats here to come and work. And which will no longer be the case for other EU members wanting to work in UK if Brexit goes through. Those who want their cake and eat it (and with chocolate, fondue and lots of CHF too).
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  #1522  
Old 22.06.2016, 20:24
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Re: Anyone watching the Great Debate on BBC

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Yes indeed, leave that non EU country which has taken years to negotiate trade deals with the EU- and had to accept free movement of people from EU - which has allowed most EU expats here to come and work. And which will no longer be the case for other EU members wanting to work in UK if Brexit goes through. Those who want their cake and eat it (and with chocolate, fondue and lots of CHF too).
Britain has also been in a fair number of difficult negotiations with the EU over the years. Remember Maggie and her rebate?
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  #1523  
Old 22.06.2016, 20:27
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Just spotted this piece in the Guardian Newspaper

"Remain and reform is wishful thinking – the left should vote leave.
- I hoped the EU would spread social democracy. Instead it has imposed austerity to pay for an unregulated financial system. Working-class people are right to vote against it."


For many undecided in this referendum it is, I believe, based on the lack of reform in the EU. A pity, eh? Imagine what it would be like if the EU was transparent, accountable and flexible. No brainer then I guess, we would all vote in.
Spot on.

The EU as a theoretical concept is more good than bad, and for most of its history it has been a force for the good. But the EU as it is today needs a very serious shock if it is to awaken from its complacency.
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  #1524  
Old 22.06.2016, 22:05
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Comments are closed on the video. Quelle suprise.
Quelle surprise! who are you, Del Boy Trotter?
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  #1525  
Old 22.06.2016, 22:12
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Spot on.

The EU as a theoretical concept is more good than bad, and for most of its history it has been a force for the good. But the EU as it is today needs a very serious shock if it is to awaken from its complacency.
It's mad, you are all blaming the EU for the collapse of several economies in the Eurozone, but fail to see that was the result of corruption and financial mismanagement in those sovereign member states. We tend to forget it's a global financial crisis, and how this all started in first place was the result of bad banking practices from the employers of many people on this very forum.
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  #1526  
Old 22.06.2016, 22:29
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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It's mad, you are all blaming the EU for the collapse of several economies in the Eurozone, but fail to see that was the result of corruption and financial mismanagement in those sovereign member states. We tend to forget it's a global financial crisis, and how this all started in first place was the result of bad banking practices from the employers of many people on this very forum.
I think that the blame can be put on the EU quite legitimately for the boom/bust of Ireland, Spain, Portugal, Greece. The attempt to shoehorn the different economic situations of these countries into a single currency and single monetary policy was clearly going to end in tears and economists warned of this but the dogma of closer political union overrode the economics.

It's not as if the ECB even made any pretense of trying to protect the PIGS. Rates were held low and long to suit Germany and to hell with the PIGS - they let them overheat and bust. Adding insult to injury, they didn't even let Ireland hang the creditors and forced Irish taxpayers to bail out non-Irish bondholders.
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  #1527  
Old 22.06.2016, 22:43
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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It's mad, you are all blaming the EU for the collapse of several economies in the Eurozone, but fail to see that was the result of corruption and financial mismanagement in those sovereign member states. We tend to forget it's a global financial crisis, and how this all started in first place was the result of bad banking practices from the employers of many people on this very forum.
They might not have flipped the switch, however, it is their fault that the stagnation and prolonged austerity has created a constant state of misery and poverty across the eurozone.. which, I hastened to add, shows no sign of improving.

See here an article from 2014. Funny how we were all in agreement then

All of the suffering in Europe – inflicted in the service of a man-made artifice, the euro – is even more tragic for being unnecessary, writes Joseph Stiglitz
Joseph E. Stiglitz, a Nobel laureate in economics, is University Professor at Columbia University.
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  #1528  
Old 22.06.2016, 22:49
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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It's mad, you are all blaming the EU for the collapse of several economies in the Eurozone, but fail to see that was the result of corruption and financial mismanagement in those sovereign member states. We tend to forget it's a global financial crisis, and how this all started in first place was the result of bad banking practices from the employers of many people on this very forum.
The EU is as much to blame for the collapse in Greece's economy as Greece is itself. What's worse though it that the EU is quite happy now to enslave the entire country into a debt that it can never repay.
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  #1529  
Old 22.06.2016, 23:51
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The EU is as much to blame for the collapse in Greece's economy as Greece is itself. What's worse though it that the EU is quite happy now to enslave the entire country into a debt that it can never repay.
Umm that would be the World Bank and the IMF, the other member states, specifically the richer ones like Germany are insisting on the Austerity measures to be taken by Greece as they want to be paid back on their loans and don't want to contribute to further bailouts, but you are talking about financial mismanagement of individual countries not the whole of the EU, which incidentally were lied too by the then corrupt government of Greece. But who's responsible in the end for the misdeeds of sovereign states? Greece would be down the pan anyway, Ireland is in a similar boat, but it's not the EU it's the fault of the banks, the politicians and the tax avoidance of big business throughout the world!

I totally agree though, it's not fair to the people of Greece, but then the people must decide who is accountable and try to ascertain where that money went!
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  #1530  
Old 22.06.2016, 23:55
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Umm that would be the World Bank and the IMF, the other member states, specifically the richer ones like Germany are insisting on the Austerity measures to be taken by Greece as they want to be paid back on their loans and don't want to contribute to further bailouts, but you are talking about financial mismanagement of individual countries not the whole of the EU, which incidentally were lied too by the then corrupt government of Greece. But who's responsible in the end for the misdeeds of sovereign states? Greece would be down the pan anyway, Ireland is in a similar boat, but it's not the EU it's the fault of the banks, the politicians and the tax avoidance of big business throughout the world!

I totally agree though, it's not fair to the people of Greece, but then the people must decide who is accountable and try to ascertain where that money went!
don't forget that the EU was very eager to get the Greek in the euro and these lies were well known.
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  #1531  
Old 23.06.2016, 00:02
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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It's mad, you are all blaming the EU for the collapse of several economies in the Eurozone, but fail to see that was the result of corruption and financial mismanagement in those sovereign member states. We tend to forget it's a global financial crisis, and how this all started in first place was the result of bad banking practices from the employers of many people on this very forum.

Corruption? What corruption? In Greece? Italy? etc etc? Are you out of your mind?
On a more serious note: don't let the facts get in the way of our regular pro-Brexit EFeres...:roll eyes:
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  #1532  
Old 23.06.2016, 00:12
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

From the Telegraph: "European Council president Donald Tusk has warned EU leaders in the bluntest terms that their “utopian” illusions are tearing Europe apart, and that any attempt to seize on Brexit to force through yet more integration would be a grave mistake.

In a passionate plea to Europe’s top conservatives, he accused the EU elites of living in a fool’s paradise and provoking the eurosceptic revolt now erupting in a string of countries.
"


I truly do not understand why this wasn't brought up and considered a lot sooner than the 1st June. If Tusk or Juncker had used this time to speak to the British public via Cameron about reforms, changes that need to happen within the EU then we could have had a more positive and constructive run up to the referendum. Instead the EU is behaving like a spoilt petulant child throwing out random silly threats at those in the UK who are thinking of voting out, rather than dealing effectively with the real issues, fears and problems facing the UK - along with the other member states..
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  #1533  
Old 23.06.2016, 00:13
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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They might not have flipped the switch, however, it is their fault that the stagnation and prolonged austerity has created a constant state of misery and poverty across the eurozone.. which, I hastened to add, shows no sign of improving.

See here an article from 2014. Funny how we were all in agreement then

All of the suffering in Europe – inflicted in the service of a man-made artifice, the euro – is even more tragic for being unnecessary, writes Joseph Stiglitz
Joseph E. Stiglitz, a Nobel laureate in economics, is University Professor at Columbia University.
The Euro was intended to elevate other European countries that were wracked with poverty and bring the whole of Europe onto a level playing field economically, those intentions were not only positive, but necessary, on the whole Europe is now wealthier and more prosperous then it has ever been. No more Drachmas or Liras or Pesos, an equal stable currency across the board! makes trade easier and more consistent! But lest we forget, a unified Europe is the best way to avoid conflict from returning to Europe.
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  #1534  
Old 23.06.2016, 00:17
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

If you think Greece wouldn't be exactly where it is right now without the EU then you really know nothing about the country. We dug a hole 10x bigger than ourselves and kicked ourselves in, corruption doesn't even begin to cut it.

EU was never the problem, it just exacerbated the underlying corruption and sped things up. They gave us funding to revuild the country and we borrowed with the same rates as superpowers like US and Germany. And what did we do? We hired 500,000 public workers as bribes to vote for that government, gave pensions from to 40 year olds and spent it all on overpriced bridges and roads that cost 10x more than normal. Today we have nothing to dhow for all these billions spent from the EU's budget, maybe the Rio-Antirio bridge and the Egnatia road, that's it.

Italy, Spain etc all on the same boat, others with less self-inflicted harm than the rest but pretty much all PIGS are the same.
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  #1535  
Old 23.06.2016, 00:17
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Re: Anyone watching the Great Debate on BBC

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Will there be a mass deportation of UK citizen from the EU and Switzerland in two years time? Probably not.

Will UK citizen still be treated the same as they are now as EU citizens? Probably not.

They will probably be treated as third party individuals when it comes to permits coming up for renewal as well. They May not be treated as well if they were to lose their job and be reliant on RAV.

What will happen to Uk citizens with EU C - permits? Will they change them to the same C permits that US citizens get?

Lots of don't knows, but if anyone thinks it will be maintaining the status quo for UK citizens in Europe, they have another think coming. You can't have your cake and eat it.
The only difference before free movement was B permits were for 1 year & you needed to be working to get a renewal. I renewed 3 times, the 4th time I got a C which lasted for 3 years. The only other difference was you needed a C permit to buy property, allowing B permit holders to buy property has pushed up prices, which really benefits very few in CH.
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  #1536  
Old 23.06.2016, 00:20
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Re: Anyone watching the Great Debate on BBC

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No, thought not ...!? Who said?

Some of us are in on UK pensions only, would you believe and not on fat Swiss salaries. If BREXIT goes through and the £ tumbles long term, we may well have little choice. I would have no problem in going back to UK- I love it there just as much, but differently, as I do here, and with my kids, grandkids, family and so many friends there, it would make sense as we get older. Especially if reciprocal arrangements fall through. In the meantime, some of you pro BREXIT- have got your job here thanks to the reciprocal EU arrangements re freedom of movement. YOU wouldn't be kicked out, I imagine, but others would from Brexit on find it much more difficult- just as difficult as it was for me to go and work in UK in 1970- when the only way to do so was for the employer to apply for the permit and make a case for you being essential and your job not suitable for a local.

But the truth is, I'd love to go back to the Britain I've loved for those nearly 40 years- not some broken up 'Little Britain' isolated from the rest of the world

BTW there are 1 million + of retired people from the UK living in France, Spain, Italy and other EU countries on UK pensions who would probably have to go back if the £ drops significantly and if they lose EU agreements on health care.
It was dead easy to stay in a country before free movement, you just needed to get married, of course you knew that & did
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  #1537  
Old 23.06.2016, 00:23
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Re: Anyone watching the Great Debate on BBC

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It was dead easy to stay in a country before free movement, you just needed to get married, of course you knew that & did
Yeah, right. Odile was a gold digger and a passport hunter. Can this thread get even sillier than that? Is there any record to break or something?
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  #1538  
Old 23.06.2016, 00:25
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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If you think Greece wouldn't be exactly where it is right now without the EU then you really know nothing about the country. We dug a hole 10x bigger than ourselves and kicked ourselves in, corruption doesn't even begin to cut it.

EU was never the problem, it just exacerbated the underlying corruption and sped things up. They gave us funding to revuild the country and we borrowed with the same rates as superpowers like US and Germany. And what did we do? We hired 500,000 public workers as bribes to vote for that government, gave pensions from to 40 year olds and spent it all on overpriced bridges and roads that cost 10x more than normal. Today we have nothing to dhow for all these billions spent from the EU's budget, maybe the Rio-Antirio bridge and the Egnatia road, that's it.

Italy, Spain etc all on the same boat, others with less self-inflicted harm than the rest but pretty much all PIGS are the same.
It exacerbated the problem and took away the main tool that would fix it: currency devaluation.

And it is not just Greece, but Ireland, Portugal and Spain.

It isn't of course, wholly the Eurozone at fault which has caused it, but the Eurozone and EU policies are making things worse.
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  #1539  
Old 23.06.2016, 00:29
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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It exacerbated the problem and took away the main tool that would fix it: currency devaluation.

And it is not just Greece, but Ireland, Portugal and Spain.

It isn't of course, wholly the Eurozone at fault which has caused it, but the Eurozone and EU policies are making things worse.
Yes, because having a small budget deficit is bad for the level of foreign debts. Who would have thought.
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  #1540  
Old 23.06.2016, 00:36
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Corruption? What corruption? In Greece? Italy? etc etc? Are you out of your mind?
On a more daily mail tabloid trashy note: don't let the facts get in the way of our regular pro-Brexit EFeres...:roll eyes:
Ftfy

I am really sick of each side bashing the other. There are too many important questions and considerations for us all to think about - objectively. The results from the referendum, whether in or out, will not alter the fact that we will still need to consider the direction we are all heading in.

I could do with more time.
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