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  #61  
Old 19.02.2016, 14:52
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Re: Apple vs The FBI

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Just off the top of my head:
A rogue intelligence in financial dire straits is looking for means of making extra cash. He compromises your phone in order to get credit card numbers, better yet, with the info he has he transfers money from your account to his.

Following this line of thinking of an IO who needs money:
He comprises your phone, along with a thousand other phones using similar methods and then sells of this info to an advertising firm. This advertising firm then sells this info to an insurance company who then uses the infos gained from the phones to bombard the victims with money.

Another example.
With the info from your phone, the said Rogue official can deduce your movement patterns. He/she knows when you probably won't be at home. He then lets his friend know about this so that that friend can break into your place and rob you.

The possibilities are endless with what people could do with info gotten from someones Phone...
But all of those things are serious crimes and this person would be heavily punished. This is exactly what I mean by saying that there must be laws against abuse.

My question relates to the intelligence services conducting a legitimate, lawful investigation. I'm asking for a simple realistic example. I did say "plausible" in my previous request, not a flight of fancy about criminal intelligence personnel.

What you've offered are reasons not to own a phone or a computer at all. Nothing to do with law enforcement personnel, corrupt or otherwise.
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  #62  
Old 19.02.2016, 15:03
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Re: Apple vs The FBI

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But all of those things are serious crimes and this person would be heavily punished. This is exactly what I mean by saying that there must be laws against abuse.

My question relates to the intelligence services conducting a legitimate, lawful investigation. I'm asking for a simple realistic example. I did say "plausible" in my previous request, not a flight of fancy about criminal intelligence personnel.

What you've offered are reasons not to own a phone or a computer at all. Nothing to do with law enforcement personnel, corrupt or otherwise.
if caught you forgot to say. What did Snowden reveal to us all? Just the possibility that such things could happen is bad enough, just the possibility...
Not own a phone or computer? that still doe not make you immune to digital iD theft. Anyone living in a developed nation has a digital footprint whether they like it or not Why and how come? Online Bank transactions for example. Once a piece of the digital structure can be compromised then the whole structure can be compromisedI don't need to steal information from your phone in order to have info on you, all i have to do is steal info from someone elses who knows you and that has a phone and i'll get all the info i might ever need.
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  #63  
Old 19.02.2016, 15:06
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Re: Apple vs The FBI

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But all of those things are serious crimes and this person would be heavily punished. This is exactly what I mean by saying that there must be laws against abuse.

My question relates to the intelligence services conducting a legitimate, lawful investigation. I'm asking for a simple realistic example. I did say "plausible" in my previous request, not a flight of fancy about criminal intelligence personnel.

What you've offered are reasons not to own a phone or a computer at all. Nothing to do with law enforcement personnel, corrupt or otherwise.
Because if you physically break into a bank vault there are only so many ways to go about it, all of which will with high likelihood lead some level of forensic and witness evidence.

It's so much more difficult to track down the hacker who stole your data and even more difficult to prove that they got or stole it from the FBI.

It's difficult enough today with spam marketing etc, trying to get companies to reveal where they got your name from. Maybe the FBI could do a raid on their offices and seize their hard disks and email records, but that doesnt just happen because an average guy writes a letter expressing an unfounded suspicion. So effectively there is systemic support of the perpetrators and against the victims.

Because it is so difficult to prove anything, the security must be in the technology rather than some open back door people promise not to use.
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  #64  
Old 19.02.2016, 15:21
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Re: Apple vs The FBI

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Not trying to be clever but the caveat I've added is extremely important.

I've not read every detail about the recent Apple case but I don't think the FBI are asking for blanket power to access everyone's phone whenever they fancy it. It concerns a very specific phone used by an individual who committed mass murder.
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But all of those things are serious crimes and this person would be heavily punished. This is exactly what I mean by saying that there must be laws against abuse.
Unfortunately, what the Snowden revelations have shown is that the government has complete disregard for the law and privacy and that attempts to punish them have failed due to discovery being blocked on 'national security' grounds.
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  #65  
Old 19.02.2016, 15:22
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Re: Apple vs The FBI

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It's so much more difficult to track down the hacker who stole your data and even more difficult to prove that they got or stole it from the FBI.
Yes, it's harder. But it's still a serious crime and there are sanctions against it. But going too far down this road is getting away from the point -- that (for me) the benefits far outweigh the risks. Yes, a corrupt official may try to empty my bank account if he/she had legitimately applied for access to my phone and computer. But how smart would that be? If I discovered my cash was missing a few days after the seizure of my phone, who would be the prime suspect? Not very clever!
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Because it is so difficult to prove anything, the security must be in the technology rather than some open back door people promise not to use
But as far as I know, the FBI have not applied for a blanket key to unlock all Apple phones in the future. That would be way out of order. They want to examine a specific phone. As I said in an earlier post, could not that be done under highly secure conditions on Apple premises resulting in them receiving the data they are interested in? The phone is then re-secured and the code destroyed. One of these situations where both sides could agree on appropriate safeguards with some willing.
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  #66  
Old 19.02.2016, 15:29
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Re: Apple vs The FBI

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Unfortunately, what the Snowden revelations have shown is that the government has complete disregard for the law and privacy and that attempts to punish them have failed due to discovery being blocked on 'national security' grounds.
I think we are in danger of confusing too many things. It obscures the issue of Apple vs the FBI. As I've said, Apple could make the data available from this single, specific phone under very strict secure conditions on their own premises, without giving the FBI a handy DVD of the code for future use.

The Snowden case gave much cause for concern, but is quite unrelated to this particular application for access to one particular handset that belonged to a mass murderer.
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  #67  
Old 19.02.2016, 15:36
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Re: Apple vs The FBI

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if caught you forgot to say. What did Snowden reveal to us all? Just the possibility that such things could happen is bad enough, just the possibility...
Not own a phone or computer? that still doe not make you immune to digital iD theft. Anyone living in a developed nation has a digital footprint whether they like it or not Why and how come? Online Bank transactions for example. Once a piece of the digital structure can be compromised then the whole structure can be compromisedI don't need to steal information from your phone in order to have info on you, all i have to do is steal info from someone elses who knows you and that has a phone and i'll get all the info i might ever need.
Sorry, I'll shut up in a moment because we are repeating ourselves.

But I don't agree that "Just the possibility that such things could happen is bad enough, just the possibility...". What about the possibility of a plane crashing? Is that not enough to stop all flights?

The answer is no. The benefits outweigh the risks, and I think that for Apple and the FBI to work together with good grace over this one specific phone, to help understand a dreadful crime, where there would be no implications for future investigations, then the benefits to us as a society would outweigh the risks to us. That's my belief, but I know you have a different perspective.
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  #68  
Old 19.02.2016, 15:36
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Re: Apple vs The FBI

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I think we are in danger of confusing too many things. It obscures the issue of Apple vs the FBI. As I've said, Apple could make the data available from this single, specific phone under very strict secure conditions on their own premises, without giving the FBI a handy DVD of the code for future use.

The Snowden case gave much cause for concern, but is quite unrelated to this particular application for access to one particular handset that belonged to a mass murderer.
Thats the crux of the matter; this is a precedent situation; the so called "slippery slope". It starts with this one cell phone, but does it stop there? methinks not.
Today its one phone, tomorrow a US law will be passed stating that ALL cell phones must have such a back door.
Its a pandoras box and no one wants to open...
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  #69  
Old 19.02.2016, 15:40
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Re: Apple vs The FBI

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I am in what looks to be a minority against Apple on this one.

I think it's perfectly reasonable for the FBI to be able to access an individual's entire private life if so decided by a judge according to the law.

The guy killed 14 people ffsk. If FBI wants to search his house, examine his anal cavity by a big fat nurse called Randy, search all his documents and files and decrypt his mobile phone, that is all legal. And if you are preventing that, you are breaking the law. You have a problem with that, change the law.

Apple is perfectly capable to unlock and decrypt the phone technically and _only that phone_. Yes, this is where lines need to be drawn - Apple shouldn't provide a blanket solution that would allow to unlock any phone without any supervision. This is where law and oversight needs to be put in place. But individual phones of convicted felons for whom the law has decided that it should have access to the information, that they have to comply with.

Otherwise, even commercially speaking, would Apple prefer to end up being branded as a kind of "Silk Road" outfit?
I think you will find that what you think "the law" says and what law-enforcement (and courts) interpret out of it to be two very different things, at times.

The problem is also, that there's not really any oversight, because most everything can easily be declared "a matter of national security".
You do remember that you can still be sent to (a black-site) prison in the US without a lawyer, for an infinite time, just because they think you're a spy?
Additionally, nobody is really going to "read" through your phone-data.
It's fed into data-mining software that can and will come to a number of conclusions and ultimately come to a "scoring".
Imagine going into a Starbucks every morning to fetch your coffee.
Now, imagine if somebody like the Jihadi-Couple from San Bernardino also went into the same StarBucks every morning - at the same time as you do.
(They'd find that through teleco-data anyway).
Now, they have a link between you and the terrorist and they will go through everything they can get hold of you.
But that's not the end of it. Imagine someone you know going to that Starbucks, instead of yourself and (s)he calls you afterwards, semi-regularly.
They'll put your profile through the same data-mining alghorithm, because you're just one level away from the "target".
AFAIK, they can (and will) do follow-ups up to three (or four) levels of separation.
It can end up as nothing or just an inconvenience (more "random" checks at the Airport, including the above mentioned full body-cavity search).
The fact that you can't imagine what your data on your phone could do to you (or somebody else, connected to you) does not mean somebody else can't.

Drone-strikes in Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen are more or less only done on the grounds of this meta-data - because there are rarely any "eyes" on the ground.
Don't put too much trust on people "doing the right thing".
Not going to happen.
It's bad enough that we have to have the CEO of the most profitable (legal) business in the world to stand up for our rights - even if it's only he fears declining sales...
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  #70  
Old 19.02.2016, 15:41
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Re: Apple vs The FBI

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Apple could make the data available from this single, specific phone under very strict secure conditions on their own premises, without giving the FBI a handy DVD of the code for future use.
I agree with you. I think Apple's ability to refuse in this instance may be weak, which is why they may want to increase the security of iPhones in the future to avoid getting similar requests.
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Old 19.02.2016, 15:45
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Re: Apple vs The FBI

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AFAIK, they can (and will) do follow-ups up to three (or four) levels of separation.
They will consider 3 degrees of separation.

FB recently reveal that on average everyone is connected on average by ~3.5 degrees of separation.
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Old 19.02.2016, 15:59
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Re: Apple vs The FBI

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Apple has already given the Feds everything they have - iCloud backups, etc. requiring them to create a custom tool goes above and beyond the legally granted governmental powers, in my opinion. Don't forget that in the US, contrary to some other countries, the federal government only has the powers explicitly granted to them by the constitution; in other countries, the government is explicitly restricted from some activities, but in the US they are explicitly allowed some activities, and to my understanding this isn't one of them.
This plus 1000.

And even if...personally, the US government would be the least of my worries. I am scared that, somewhere down the line, some cuckoo dictator somewhere demands the same thing from Apple - since they have done it once before - and then we are in deep s...

A really,and unnecessary, dangerous precedent.
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Old 19.02.2016, 16:25
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Re: Apple vs The FBI

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This plus 1000.

And even if...personally, the US government would be the least of my worries. I am scared that, somewhere down the line, some cuckoo dictator somewhere demands the same thing from Apple - since they have done it once before - and then we are in deep s...

A really,and unnecessary, dangerous precedent.
It doesn't even take a cuckoo dictator.

Most Apple products are manufactured in a country that doesn't have a good human rights record and still prosecutes political dissenters and critics.
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Old 19.02.2016, 16:31
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Re: Apple vs The FBI

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...some cuckoo dictator somewhere demands the same thing from Apple - since they have done it once before - and then we are in deep s...

A really,and unnecessary, dangerous precedent.
I don't buy that, in fact I think quite the opposite...

What do you reckon the situation in China is at the moment? Do you think the Chinese spooks even care about what the US decides on this? That they to go to a court and publicly ask a company do decrypt some dissident's phone? They would have already done it, rip-off and replace hardware and firmware by themselves and bypass the damn check altogether.

And do you think Apple/Google/Facebook/etc have would rather fight to protect their customer rights in China or rather their financial investment and market there?

In fact, should the FBI manage to show that it can decrypt a phone legally via a full judicial oversight would be a much better argument in front of cuckoo dictators and regimes who simply prefer to firewall, filter, sniff and hack the crap of all their citizen's electronic communication.
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Old 19.02.2016, 16:32
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Re: Apple vs The FBI

McAfee's offered to unlock it for them.

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-35611763
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  #76  
Old 19.02.2016, 17:59
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Re: Apple vs The FBI

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In fact, should the FBI manage to show that it can decrypt a phone legally via a full judicial oversight would be a much better argument in front of cuckoo dictators and regimes who simply prefer to firewall, filter, sniff and hack the crap of all their citizen's electronic communication.
You think the FBI will change the NSA and the US regime's approach?
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  #77  
Old 19.02.2016, 18:02
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Re: Apple vs The FBI

Have they tried his mum's birthday date or his pet's name?
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Old 19.02.2016, 18:08
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Re: Apple vs The FBI

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Have they tried his mum's birthday date or his pet's name?
Probably.
And it didn't work.
So, with Mohammed's birthday and 0911 (and 1109), they're down to six tries.
That's why they want a custom iOS build that removes this limit....
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Old 19.02.2016, 18:10
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Re: Apple vs The FBI

Can we add a yes/no poll to whether Apple will give the FBI what they want in the end? I vote yes.
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Old 19.02.2016, 18:13
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Re: Apple vs The FBI

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You think the FBI will change the NSA and the US regime's approach?
No, I don't belive in fairytales either...

It's just a point that if you show how to access the data legally and relatively straighforwardly in a _justified_ case, then you can better argue against the people who want to use widespread surveillance instead. Of course, it doesn't mean spooks won't try it, but it gives arguments to those who want to limit their powers.
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