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  #121  
Old 08.04.2016, 11:30
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Re: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

The sooner flat rate taxation on all income / revenue the better. Allow zero deductions for any expenses of any kind. The rate will be substantially lower than 10%, however the poor will actually have to pay their 'fair share' which is where it all falls down as they don't want to pay anything.
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  #122  
Old 08.04.2016, 11:32
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Re: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

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So essentially you want to remove the rule of law. Doesn't matter if it was legal, the mob decides at will.
You're making this up.
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  #123  
Old 08.04.2016, 11:47
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Re: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

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The sooner flat rate taxation on all income / revenue the better. Allow zero deductions for any expenses of any kind. The rate will be substantially lower than 10%, however the poor will actually have to pay their 'fair share' which is where it all falls down as they don't want to pay anything.
The problem is that most high tax advocates see it as a punishment on the wealthy rather than a revenue to do good with.
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  #124  
Old 08.04.2016, 11:50
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Re: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

More interesting revelations ...

Housing crisis: Foreign despots buy up London, while millennials left out in the cold

While under-35s are effectively locked out of the UK housing market, the Panama Papers show Middle East and African dictators feel right at home in Britain’s pricey capital.
The son of deposed Egyptian dictator Hosni Mubarak, a Nigerian senator currently facing corruption charges, and characters connected to Syrian President Bashar Assad all boast swanky pads in top London postcodes like Belgravia and Kensington.


https://www.rt.com/uk/338814-london-...-panama-youth/
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  #125  
Old 08.04.2016, 11:53
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Re: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

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More interesting revelations ...

Housing crisis: Foreign despots buy up London, while millennials left out in the cold

While under-35s are effectively locked out of the UK housing market, the Panama Papers show Middle East and African dictators feel right at home in Britain’s pricey capital.
The son of deposed Egyptian dictator Hosni Mubarak, a Nigerian senator currently facing corruption charges, and characters connected to Syrian President Bashar Assad all boast swanky pads in top London postcodes like Belgravia and Kensington.


https://www.rt.com/uk/338814-london-...-panama-youth/
Even 30 years ago I never knew an under 35 year olds who bought in Belgravia unless they had rich parents. It's a non story.
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  #126  
Old 08.04.2016, 12:02
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Re: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

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You're making this up.
Not at all, but perhaps you should ponder on what you write before actually posting. For all I know the machinations of google (actually called Alphabet Inc. these days), apple et al are completely legal:
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its not rocket science, you know.

how about starting with politicians who have plundered their countries wealth and stored it offshore while the people have to pay taxes or have to make do with very little? then let's move on to criminals, drug dealers. then businesses like PE, Amazon Starbuck and Google etc, then rich individuals who have billions but don't want to pay any tax.
Retrospective punishment is arbitrary. The rule of the mob.
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  #127  
Old 08.04.2016, 12:47
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Re: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

Must be Friday
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  #128  
Old 08.04.2016, 13:20
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Re: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

Saying that it's legal so there's no problem is missing the point. The outrage is being generated because the majority of people don't have the resources to avoid tax in this way, and it is those who would still be considered rich even after a full tax bill who are hiding their money while everyone else suffers pay freezes and public spending cuts. Perhaps there will be prosecutions if it can be proved that the company was hiding money for sanctioned individuals, but even if there aren't grounds to prosecute more widely, this should definitely accelerate efforts to close tax loopholes.

These actions being legal and therefore not wrong is a very bad argument. Saudi Arabian law, for example, permits the execution of homosexuals. Many acts such as theft were made illegal because they were already considered morally wrong.

I don't know whether my behaviour would change if I had that level of wealth. I hope it wouldn't and I like to think I would be honest with my tax arrangements. I think it's certainly presumptuous to say that anyone would avoid tax in this way if they could.
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  #129  
Old 08.04.2016, 13:26
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Re: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

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this should definitely accelerate efforts to close tax loopholes.
The only way to close them is through decisive action on an EU level. This sort of thing won't be decided by the EU parliament, but the commission, where the heads of states agree... the president of that commission is a certain former prime minister of Luxembourg, a tax haven in its own right. He made tax deals with companies like Amazon who route all their EU payments through Luxembourg and in exchange pay a 1% company tax...


I think its way more likely that Juncker is found out to own some off-shore companies himself than him doing anything about them.
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  #130  
Old 08.04.2016, 13:34
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Re: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

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Even 30 years ago I never knew an under 35 year olds who bought in Belgravia unless they had rich parents. It's a non story.
I know but I bet you didn't have a coffee with Hosni Mubarak and Bashar Assad in Belgravia or Kensington 30 years ago. Or you did?
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  #131  
Old 08.04.2016, 13:58
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Re: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

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These actions being legal and therefore not wrong is a very bad argument. Saudi Arabian law, for example, permits the execution of homosexuals. Many acts such as theft were made illegal because they were already considered morally wrong.
Comparing tax avoidance with executing homosexuals. I need to lie down.
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  #132  
Old 08.04.2016, 14:11
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Re: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

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I know but I bet you didn't have a coffee with Hosni Mubarak and Bashar Assad in Belgravia or Kensington 30 years ago. Or you did?
Paging Wolli...
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  #133  
Old 08.04.2016, 14:19
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Re: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

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The only way to close them is through decisive action on an EU level. This sort of thing won't be decided by the EU parliament, but the commission, where the heads of states agree... the president of that commission is a certain former prime minister of Luxembourg, a tax haven in its own right. He made tax deals with companies like Amazon who route all their EU payments through Luxembourg and in exchange pay a 1% company tax...


I think its way more likely that Juncker is found out to own some off-shore companies himself than him doing anything about them.
Yes you're probably right. Whilst I'd like to see tax loopholes closed in the wake of these revelations, I'm pessimistic that it will actually happen. For all its ability to become outraged by a news story, the public has a very short memory. We might be cynical about the media's strategy of drip-feeding the information, but at least that keeps the story in the public conscience for a bit longer. I expect that some very grand words will be said, petitions signed, protests held and Mossack Fonseca's reputation might be ruined, but in the long run this story will get forgotten soon enough and other avenues for similar practices will remain open. Although having said that, Brits still haven't totally forgotten the 2009 parliamentary expenses scandal, so who knows?

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Comparing tax avoidance with executing homosexuals. I need to lie down.
No, it wasn't a comparison. It was an extreme example to illustrate that something being legal doesn't make it right.


On a lighter note though, http://newsthump.com/2016/04/06/pana...-in-the-woods/
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  #134  
Old 08.04.2016, 14:36
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Re: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

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No, it wasn't a comparison. It was an extreme example to illustrate that something being legal doesn't make it right.
What isn't right is the levels of taxation in Western Europe. Yet people are so brainwashed that nobody is outraged about it.
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  #135  
Old 08.04.2016, 14:36
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Re: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

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not at all, but perhaps you should ponder on what you write before actually posting.
< bites lip >

arse meet elbow
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  #136  
Old 08.04.2016, 15:09
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Re: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

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What isn't right is the levels of taxation in Western Europe. Yet people are so brainwashed that nobody is outraged about it.
Maybe they are, but high taxes affect the poor too. Those with the resources to hide money offshore would still be rich even if they paid tax on it like everybody else. The ones who cannot afford to avoid tax are the ones who can least afford to pay it.

If you think taxes are too high, vote for someone who promises to lower them or join/start a campaign to that effect. We have democratic processes, and a disagreement with the level of taxation does not give you carte blanche to decide your own bill.

I'm not quite sure what to make of your suggestion that we should be more outraged by the level of taxation which these people felt no other option but to avoid. Like others in this thread, I think Russkov puts it very nicely.

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... if you can't see anything ethically wrong about trillions being stashed offshore (by fat cats and politicians alike) in a world where austerity is the new normal, I don't know what to tell you.
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  #137  
Old 08.04.2016, 15:23
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Re: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

The ironic thing is, we are all living in a country synonymous with tax avoidance and which the vast wealth it has amassed is made up of. We are all benefiting from that dodged tax indirectly
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  #138  
Old 08.04.2016, 15:36
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Re: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

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The ironic thing is, we are all living in a country synonymous with tax avoidance and which the vast wealth it has amassed is made up of. We are all benefiting from that dodged tax indirectly
Indeed our Finance Minister Ueli Maurer has already made a statement that there is nothing wrong with such off-shore activities and so he plans no new legislation

Things may change a bit here after the new US tax inversion laws from last Monday which are designed to prevent companies moving their profits to lower tax countries.
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  #139  
Old 08.04.2016, 16:01
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Re: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

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If you think taxes are too high, vote for someone who promises to lower them or join/start a campaign to that effect. We have democratic processes, and a disagreement with the level of taxation does not give you carte blanche to decide your own bill.
Why should I vote? It doesn't work. There is no democratic process to reduce tax. It's far easier to move to a country with a fairer tax system that I can stomach, which I did.

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I'm not quite sure what to make of your suggestion that we should be more outraged by the level of taxation which these people felt no other option but to avoid. Like others in this thread, I think Russkov puts it very nicely.
Here are some examples of what I don't wish my tax money to be spent on: Bank bailouts, state bailouts of any kind, a large military, a full time fire service, diversity programs, foreign aid, West Ham's football stadium, state sponsored charities (a la Kids Company as these just become unregulated government departments), the Church.
I could go on, so I will: State prestige projects like the Scottish Parliament building, the EU (where you have NO influence on how tax money gets spent), big government, a bigger welfare state, the Monarchy, the resettlement of 1 million uninvited migrants, illegal wars, state sponsored culture and art, national debt management, business subsidies...

And on and on it goes. Anywhere else unsolicited demands against unwanted services is illegal. Yet people are concerned that others want to avoid paying for this crap. High taxation is wrong, immoral and it's theft.
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  #140  
Old 08.04.2016, 16:28
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Re: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

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Why should I vote? It doesn't work. There is no democratic process to reduce tax. It's far easier to move to a country with a fairer tax system that I can stomach, which I did.
There are those who run for election on promises to reduce tax, but if you don't want to vote then that's your prerogative. Moving your life to a different country is perfectly fine, but this is about people who stayed where they were while moving their money abroad.

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Here are some examples of what I don't wish my tax money to be spent on: Bank bailouts, state bailouts of any kind, a large military, a full time fire service, diversity programs, foreign aid, West Ham's football stadium, state charities (a la Kids Company as these just become unregulated government departments), the Church.
I could go on, so I will: State prestige projects like the Scottish Parliament building, the EU (where you have NO influence on how tax money gets spent), big government, a bigger welfare state, the Monarchy, the resettlement of 1 million uninvited migrants, illegal wars, state sponsored culture and art, national debt management, business subsidies...

And on and on it goes. Anywhere else unsolicited demands against unwanted services is illegal. Yet people are concerned that others want to avoid paying for this crap. High taxation is wrong, immoral and it's theft.
Ok, fine. Some of those things I agree with, some I don't, but that's a debate for another day. I'm sure lots of people think governments spend money on unnecessary stuff, but the reason for their concern is not because people don't want to pay for state-funded whatever, but rather because some individuals are able to avoid paying, while the rest of us have to suck it because we don't have the resources to go to companies like Mossack Fonseca (assuming everyone who could avoid tax would do it).
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