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  #61  
Old 14.04.2016, 09:25
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Re: JK Rowling on tax evasion- good on her

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Sigh. The two are not the same. It really isn't that hard to comprehend.



Quite. Those ISAs are a legal tax avoidance system, just as the 3rd pillar is. This whole thread is mixed up as you can't seem to grasp the difference.

That some people are able to avoid taxes more effectively is nothing illegal.

If there has been illegal activity, I (and I am sure all here) hope that those involved are caught and prosecuted.

But there is no proof of wrongdoings, and until such proof exists, this witch-hunting by ignorant ill-informed folks should stop.

Investment in Panama is NOT illegal per say and is NOT proof of wrongdoing.
Illegal and wrong are not the same. Until recently it was legal to rape and beat your wife, if your mother was being beaten and raped by your father would you just sit back and say there is no wrongdoings carry on, or would you make a stand, expose him and campaign to change the law?
Not that I'm saying that millionare law makers making laws to make it legal for millionaires to not support the economy whilst at the same time forcing disabled and unemployed people to go to food banks and be made homeless whilst stigmatising them for not paying their way is the same as rape of course......
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  #62  
Old 14.04.2016, 09:38
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Re: JK Rowling on tax evasion- good on her

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Not that I'm saying ......
Yes. You did.
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  #63  
Old 14.04.2016, 09:38
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Re: JK Rowling on tax evasion- good on her

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Illegal and wrong are not the same. Until recently it was legal to rape and beat your wife, if your mother was being beaten and raped by your father would you just sit back and say there is no wrongdoings carry on, or would you make a stand, expose him and campaign to change the law?
Not that I'm saying that millionare law makers making laws to make it legal for millionaires to not support the economy whilst at the same time forcing disabled and unemployed people to go to food banks and be made homeless whilst stigmatising them for not paying their way is the same as rape of course......
You're not suggesting it's the same as rape, but of course have no problems trying to shoehorn it in as a dramatically emotive example.
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Old 14.04.2016, 09:40
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Re: JK Rowling on tax evasion- good on her

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Illegal and wrong are not the same. Until recently it was legal to rape and beat your wife, if your mother was being beaten and raped by your father would you just sit back and say there is no wrongdoings carry on, or would you make a stand, expose him and campaign to change the law?
Not that I'm saying that millionare law makers making laws to make it legal for millionaires to not support the economy whilst at the same time forcing disabled and unemployed people to go to food banks and be made homeless whilst stigmatising them for not paying their way is the same as rape of course......
Then why bring it up?

I avoid taxes when I can and am not ashamed of it. If I could avoid more, then I would.

I pay taxes where I have to. No more no less. I am evil, I am a rapist.

Happy now?

"Wrong" is a matter of opinion.
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Old 14.04.2016, 09:59
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Re: JK Rowling on tax evasion- good on her

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Then why bring it up?

I avoid taxes when I can and am not ashamed of it. If I could avoid more, then I would.

I pay taxes where I have to. No more no less. I am evil, I am a rapist.

Happy now?

"Wrong" is a matter of opinion.
An example of how something could be legal but morally Contemptible? Just as a reaction to the post saying it's not illegal and therefore there was no wrongdoing. I could have brought up duck ponds instead, but I thought this was a more internationally understood example. Especially as marital rape is still legal in a number of countries. Just because something is legal does not mean it is not wrong.
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Old 14.04.2016, 10:07
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Re: JK Rowling on tax evasion- good on her

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An example of how something could be legal but morally Contemptible? Just as a reaction to the post saying it's not illegal and therefore there was no wrongdoing. I could have brought up duck ponds instead, but I thought this was a more internationally understood example. Especially as marital rape is still legal in a number of countries. Just because something is legal does not mean it is not wrong.
So are you saying that tax avoidance is in the same level of moral contemptibility as marital rape?
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Old 14.04.2016, 10:19
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Re: JK Rowling on tax evasion- good on her

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Never ever have I made a choice in life for money- ever.

Then you are in a rare position of privilege.


I - and many other people on this forum, I am sure - wish I could say the same.
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  #68  
Old 14.04.2016, 10:22
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Re: JK Rowling on tax evasion- good on her

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So are you saying that tax avoidance is in the same level of moral contemptibility as marital rape?
No. I am using an example that most people will understand of how legal =/= right.
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  #69  
Old 14.04.2016, 10:22
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Re: JK Rowling on tax evasion- good on her

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With a 560m fortune she is also not in a position where she ever has to worry about saving money again and is super rich even by rich standards.
That's her wealth now, by focusing on that you're effectively using hindsight. Years ago it obviously was smaller, at some point it must have been 'just' a couple millions or a few hundred thousand (pick the amount). Nonetheless it seems that JKR did indeed deliberately stay out of the more elaborate tax avoidance schemes.

I agree that very few (JKR perhaps being one of the rare exceptions) have reason to be outraged as the vast majority would most probably do the same if they were rich enough to make it worth doing. In my opinion cornetto summed it up best when he wrote "The outrage is being generated because the majority of people don't have the resources to avoid tax in this way, [..]".

What I actually find ludicrous is the fact that many on here support (and vote, or would vote for if they could) exactly those political parties that actually work to have loopholes in place, for CH that's mostly SVP and FDP.
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Old 14.04.2016, 10:28
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Re: JK Rowling on tax evasion- good on her

Choose to distort as you wish- of course. You know that I meant major life choices. like my move to UK as a youngster and the decision to stay for the man I love- like the decision to come here to look after my elderly parents...

We did make all our choices on money, especially when we were young. Chose the 3rd hand pushchair, and the kitchen table our neighbours were throwing away, made coffe tables out of banana boxes and bean bags to sit on with material from the market, and a bed made with pine slats and bricks - this is NOT what this thread is about surely (as well you know, of course). You should have seen the flat we lived when first married in London OMG

The accusations from FMF that we moved here, to this tax haven (lol this is hilarious) to avoid tax is contemptible. He knows that, and so do you.

Refer you all back to my previous speech quotes from Cameron. Now all this talk about aggrressive forms of corporate tax avoidance being IMMORAL, WRONG AND HAVE TO BE STOPPED is not from Corbyn, but from CAMERON - that ultra left wing reprobate!
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Old 14.04.2016, 10:30
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Re: JK Rowling on tax evasion- good on her

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That's her wealth now, by focusing on that you're effectively using hindsight. Years ago it obviously was smaller, at some point it must have been 'just' a couple millions or a few hundred thousand (pick the amount). Nonetheless it seems that JKR did indeed deliberately stay out of the more elaborate tax avoidance schemes.

I agree that very few have reason to be outraged as the vast majority would most probably do the same if they were rich enough to make it worth doing. In my opinion cornetto summed it up best when he wrote "The outrage is being generated because the majority of people don't have the resources to avoid tax in this way, [..]".

What I actually find preposterous is how many on here support exactly those political parties that actually work to have loopholes in place, for CH that's SVP and FDP.
True, but I like to think if I did avoid tax with one hand I would not cut tax-credit and benefits and close libraries and sell off schools and the health service whislt blaming those too poor to use loopholes for the financial shortfall with the other.
Yes, I might be jealous that I do not have the resources to avoid tax in this way, but that doesn't mean I can't feel outrage the hypocrisy of the super rich telling the poor that we are all in it together whilst stripping their countries bare and pushing millions under the poverty line. (Not just in the UK).
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Old 14.04.2016, 10:32
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Re: JK Rowling on tax evasion- good on her

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Choose to distort as you wish- of course. You know that I meant major life choices.

That's exactly what I'm talking about.


You think I moved to Greece to look at ruins and drink ouzo? I was unemployed. I needed a job. I left my family, friends and everything I knew to find work two thousand miles away from home.


There are hundreds of millions of people who have done exactly the same over the centuries. Many of them frequent this forum.


People who can say they have never made an important life choice for money are a rare, fortunate and very privileged breed. Good on them!


Most of us are not in such a position.
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Old 14.04.2016, 11:05
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Re: JK Rowling on tax evasion- good on her

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That's her wealth now, by focusing on that you're effectively using hindsight. Years ago it obviously was smaller, at some point it must have been 'just' a couple millions or a few hundred thousand (pick the amount). Nonetheless it seems that JKR did indeed deliberately stay out of the more elaborate tax avoidance schemes.

I agree that very few (JKR perhaps being one of the rare exceptions) have reason to be outraged as the vast majority would most probably do the same if they were rich enough to make it worth doing. In my opinion cornetto summed it up best when he wrote "The outrage is being generated because the majority of people don't have the resources to avoid tax in this way, [..]".

What I actually find ludicrous is the fact that many on here support (and vote, or would vote for if they could) exactly those political parties that actually work to have loopholes in place, for CH that's mostly SVP and FDP.
Eh, I'm using hindsight by quoting her current wealth? What relevance does it have to my post... or do you mean she wrote that Facebook post years ago when she had comparatively little money?
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  #74  
Old 14.04.2016, 11:08
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Re: JK Rowling on tax evasion- good on her

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An example of how something could be legal but morally Contemptible? Just as a reaction to the post saying it's not illegal and therefore there was no wrongdoing. I could have brought up duck ponds instead, but I thought this was a more internationally understood example. Especially as marital rape is still legal in a number of countries. Just because something is legal does not mean it is not wrong.
Tax avoidance is not morally wrong.
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Old 14.04.2016, 11:16
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Re: JK Rowling on tax evasion- good on her

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Tax avoidance is not morally wrong.
Tax evasion though.....................

Your average Guardian/Mail/EF reader doesn't understand the difference between the 2.

I have nothing wrong with paying the tax I should pay but I sure as hell don't want to pay the tax I can avoid paying by legal means.

The Dodgy family avoided paying tax on 13,500chf last year because we paid into a 3a.
The Dodgy family avoided paying tax on 5,000chf last year because we correctly filled out the section related to travel costs.

We are rapists!!!
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Old 14.04.2016, 11:28
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Re: JK Rowling on tax evasion- good on her

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I don't think Osborne & Little makes 'millions' whilst JKR makes more in profits than Osborne & Little has in turnover. It will be interesting to see if it's not gone bankrupt in 10 years time.
The meme going around is that they've had millions in turnover and not paid any tax. Of course company's are not and never have been taxed on turnover, but on profit. O&L made losses in the early years that are still be carried forward, and that's why they don't pay corporation tax. However, they do pay dividends out of operational profit (I confess I don't know how the tax works in that case). They do pay tax and NI on (not small) salaries.
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He is not, he invested in a company domiciled in Panama...
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David Cameron has been accused of hypocrisy after he admitted he did have a profitable stake in his father’s offshore investment fund, despite previous statements condemning aggressive tax avoidance as “not morally acceptable”.
Anyone can invest in an off-shore fund. It doesn't require any special privilege, or specialist tax advice to exploit loopholes. What matters is whether the income you personally receive from that fund is properly taxed.

There absolutely is no avoidance - aggressive or otherwise. I'm sorry Odile, but on this one you are wrong.

Obviously Cameron is a hypocrite - he's a politician - but not on this particular subject. People who are morally outraged either don't understand or are deliberately trying to stir up a political excrement storm so that those who don't understand think Cameron has done something wrong.
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Old 14.04.2016, 11:56
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Re: JK Rowling on tax evasion- good on her

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Tax avoidance is not morally wrong.
I think it is if politicians have allowed rich individuals, rich companies etc with resources other people do not possess the loopholes to legally avoid paying tax.
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Old 14.04.2016, 12:13
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Re: JK Rowling on tax evasion- good on her

The sooner there is a flat tax with zero deductions the better. Then the little will have nothing to complain about just they will pay more tax.

The Poll tax was a brilliant idea everybody pays it
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Old 14.04.2016, 12:17
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Re: JK Rowling on tax evasion- good on her

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The sooner there is a flat tax with zero deductions the better. Then the little will have nothing to complain about just they will pay more tax.

The Poll tax was a brilliant idea everybody pays it
I think the rich complain far more about paying tax than the "little"
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Old 14.04.2016, 12:35
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Re: JK Rowling on tax evasion- good on her

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PS(eta): one could also consider the likelihood that those rich folks' tax contributions are greater than people with less income in absolute terms per individual, while their resource usage (e.g. in terms of social support needs/schooling/healthcare) is probably less than those people screwing the system on a day-to-day basis, yet we saw a spate of fly-on-the-wall documentaries like "Benefits Street" casting them as victims... There's nothing like bashing those who have money by those who don't... If you are truly happy, Odile, you really wouldn't be that fussed.


So here is a question for the moral majority on the thread: I pay tax in three countries:
1) CH - because I live and work here and make daily use of the infrastructure. Happy to do so.
2) US - because my country is a money grubbing whore when it comes to expats. But it is the law, I do intend to return some day and plug back into the social network, and even though I served my country for 11 years (and in 3 conflicts), I am not a patriotic citizen unless I pay taxes (according to JKR).
3) UK - Why? Because I am a Managing Director of a company located in the UK. I do not live there, I will never live there nor will I ever utilize the social services of the country. During the few days a month that I travel there, I utilize the infrastructure in the same manner a tourist normally would and I of course pay full fare for train, taxi, etc. etc. This arbitrary tax is nothing more than a money grab by the UK Govt because of a title and assumption that all business directors are rich and able to pay.


So, my question - How is that fair from a social perspective? Since I am tax equalized, I now consider it my fiduciary duty to limit the amount of tax I have to pay in to the UK to limit the liability my company accrues. Is that immoral of me? Is that "wrong" of me and if so, why? Discuss.
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