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View Poll Results: Did your vote change?
Don't be stupid: I was going to vote Leave and still will 28 34.15%
Don't be stupid: I was going to vote Remain and still will 32 39.02%
I changed from Leave/Undecided to Remain 1 1.22%
I changed from Remain/Undecided to Leave 6 7.32%
Still undecided 4 4.88%
Other 11 13.41%
Voters: 82. You may not vote on this poll

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  #61  
Old 05.06.2016, 01:37
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Re: Brexit - did your vote change

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Another tiresome "meme" is doing the rounds on social media suggesting that those who intend to vote "leave" are "a little bit racist".

Seriously, what is this bullshit? The debate has nothing to do with race, and crap like this just helps harden the opinions of those of us who, after much reflection, have decided to vote this way.

Do people really think this is going to sway us, or is it just more enlightened-persons' mutual backslapping?
Nah, it's just true for a lot of people. What makes you think it might not be? The fact that there aren't any racist people or that the racist people there are like lots of immigrants?
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  #62  
Old 05.06.2016, 09:47
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Re: Brexit - did your vote change

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Well, take a look at Switzerland: much less of what you mention but also less unemployment, higher wages, better public services, and so on.
Actually most of those also apply in Switzerland because of the single market requirements and are enshrined in the bilateral agreements. I remember my employer having to change some internal processes because of the implementation of the working time directive.
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  #63  
Old 05.06.2016, 10:07
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Re: Brexit - did your vote change

The racist argument just demonstrates the hopeless childlike insults from the stay camp. A points based system would be introduced to allow migration and all migration from outside Europe, which coincidentally is where most of the people who are different race rather than just different nationality come from, would continue as it does now.

Survey this morning says leave is ahead btw. The big gamble of scaring and insulting people into voting to stay, may be about to backfire.
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  #64  
Old 05.06.2016, 11:32
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Re: Brexit - did your vote change

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The racist argument just demonstrates the hopeless childlike insults from the stay camp. A points based system would be introduced to allow migration and all migration from outside Europe, which coincidentally is where most of the people who are different race rather than just different nationality come from, would continue as it does now.

Survey this morning says leave is ahead btw. The big gamble of scaring and insulting people into voting to stay, may be about to backfire.
I would be wary of drawing such a conclusion from a small set within a narrow group. The result will be decided by the masses, which currently means whether fear of leaving trumps fear of immigration. The leave camp, IMO, failed to argue the economic side allowing the stay camp to make it a economy vs immigration debate. I would imagine economy would normally win.

I think the main chance for leave is if they can also make the economic arguments in the time remaining and mobilise more voters.
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  #65  
Old 05.06.2016, 11:42
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Re: Brexit - did your vote change

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I would be wary of drawing such a conclusion from a small set within a narrow group. The result will be decided by the masses, which currently means whether fear of leaving trumps fear of immigration. The leave camp, IMO, failed to argue the economic side allowing the stay camp to make it a economy vs immigration debate. I would imagine economy would normally win.

I think the main chance for leave is if they can also make the economic arguments in the time remaining and mobilise more voters.
If the Leave economic arguments are so strong then why aren't they going for the jugular?
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  #66  
Old 05.06.2016, 12:03
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Re: Brexit - did your vote change

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I would be wary of drawing such a conclusion from a small set within a narrow group. The result will be decided by the masses, which currently means whether fear of leaving trumps fear of immigration. The leave camp, IMO, failed to argue the economic side allowing the stay camp to make it a economy vs immigration debate. I would imagine economy would normally win.

I think the main chance for leave is if they can also make the economic arguments in the time remaining and mobilise more voters.
I agree, but I think they would walk this (remain) if they would give just that. Instead they said this would cost us 4000 pounds a year until 2030, that it would lead to war in the Middle East, that it could stop the development of cancer cures, the list of wildly over he top claims is endless. Lost within that are a few real economic predictions but there is such anger over the deliberate scare tactics that it might cost them a lot of floating voters. Core anti immigration and core pro Europe are set, it's the grey cloud of people in between that matter.
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  #67  
Old 05.06.2016, 12:05
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Re: Brexit - did your vote change

Did you see the stats for Trump voters in the USA?

Well, those have just come out for the UK and it's quite interesting:

Voting intention by demography

Voting to remain by more than 50%
Welsh
Scottish
Female
High political interest
ABC1 social grade
Londoners
30-39
University educated
18-29 Lib supporters
Labour supporters

Split
Medium political interest
All GB adults

Those voting out
UKIP
60+
Social grades C2DE
Non university educated
East England
Midlands
50-59
40-49
North England
Males
Southern England.
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  #68  
Old 05.06.2016, 12:25
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Re: Brexit - did your vote change

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Did you see the stats for Trump voters in the USA?

Well, those have just come out for the UK and it's quite interesting:

Voting intention by demography

Voting to remain by more than 50%
Welsh
Scottish
Female
High political interest
ABC1 social grade
Londoners
30-39
University educated
18-29 Lib supporters
Labour supporters

Split
Medium political interest
All GB adults

Those voting out
UKIP
60+
Social grades C2DE
Non university educated
East England
Midlands
50-59
40-49
North England
Males
Southern England.
Me so not surprised.
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  #69  
Old 05.06.2016, 12:29
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Re: Brexit - did your vote change

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Did you see the stats for Trump voters in the USA?

Well, those have just come out for the UK and it's quite interesting:

Voting intention by demography

Voting to remain by more than 50%
Welsh
Scottish
Female
High political interest
ABC1 social grade
Londoners
30-39
University educated
18-29 Lib supporters
Labour supporters

Split
Medium political interest
All GB adults

Those voting out
UKIP
60+
Social grades C2DE
Non university educated
East England
Midlands
50-59
40-49
North England
Males
Southern England.
Interesting in what way? What is your analysis of these data?
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  #70  
Old 05.06.2016, 12:41
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Re: Brexit - did your vote change

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Did you see the stats for Trump voters in the USA?

Well, those have just come out for the UK and it's quite interesting:

Voting intention by demography

Voting to remain by more than 50%
Welsh
Scottish
Female
High political interest
ABC1 social grade
Londoners
30-39
University educated
18-29 Lib supporters
Labour supporters

Split
Medium political interest
All GB adults

Those voting out
UKIP
60+
Social grades C2DE
Non university educated
East England
Midlands
50-59
40-49
North England
Males
Southern England.
Souds about right. If you live in London, are rich, use the cheap labour suddenly available, hire a polish nanny on a fiver an hour and try to pay less than that for a cleaner, you love it in the eu.

If you live in Newcastle as a plumber have watched your wages go down over the last ten years, investment dry up as everything is piled into the South financially and have no real say because all the university toffs are the ones that make decisions ignoring you completely, then you vote to leave.
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  #71  
Old 05.06.2016, 12:54
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Re: Brexit - did your vote change

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Interesting in what way? What is your analysis of these data?
Come on, don't take it personally.
It does not mean that every Brexiter is a racist bigot, but that racist bigots tend to be Brexiters.
At the same time, lazy hipsters who cannot bother working and think that it is cool to get money to do nothing tend to be Remainers.

So both sides have their ups and downs.
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  #72  
Old 05.06.2016, 13:53
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Re: Brexit - did your vote change

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Come on, don't take it personally.
It does not mean that every Brexiter is a racist bigot, but that racist bigots tend to be Brexiters.
At the same time, lazy hipsters who cannot bother working and think that it is cool to get money to do nothing tend to be Remainers.

So both sides have their ups and downs.
Your post bears no relation to my question.
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  #73  
Old 05.06.2016, 14:02
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Re: Brexit - did your vote change

More chance for our thinking to be influenced by this data, whether it's true or not. Moreover, the results of this data is not what I am finding here in Hampshire as many Uni educated folks I know and chat with are really undecided, and some (not all) are now leaning toward the leave side.

Too many in the South are trapped in expensive poor-value rentals and an inflexible housing market with its horrendously high prices while salaries stagnate. University fees keep increasing and the recent student loan scandal has many middle class educated aghast at how we can burden our children this way. This is a real worry for families with younger kids in state education who feel their kids are going to have to think long and hard about the future choices in job training/ 3rd level education. Local services continue to be cut back by cash strapped councils giving folks less and less options to find vital and essential mental health care and disability support groups for children and adults alike.
The stagnation affecting so many here is seen as one of the negatives of being in the EU.

So, yeah, not what I am finding amongst the middle classes here in Hants.. however, I do think fear in the end will make many vote to stay. Either way, it'll be a very close result.
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  #74  
Old 05.06.2016, 14:13
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Re: Brexit - did your vote change

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Souds about right. If you live in London, are rich, use the cheap labour suddenly available, hire a polish nanny on a fiver an hour and try to pay less than that for a cleaner, you love it in the eu.

If you live in Newcastle as a plumber have watched your wages go down over the last ten years, investment dry up as everything is piled into the South financially and have no real say because all the university toffs are the ones that make decisions ignoring you completely, then you vote to leave.
But how will leaving the EU change any of that?
In fact if today's employment laws based on EU standards are rescinded then this situation will likely worsen?
Examples;
  • ‘employees’ must be given a written statement setting out their pay and working conditions
  • a maximum 48-hour working week
  • a right to paid annual leave
  • women’s pay and pension rights

Source the TUC

Just noticed post #44 said much the same
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  #75  
Old 05.06.2016, 14:13
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Re: Brexit - did your vote change

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Did you see the stats for Trump voters in the USA?

Well, those have just come out for the UK and it's quite interesting:

Voting intention by demography

Voting to remain by more than 50%
Welsh
Scottish
Female
High political interest
ABC1 social grade
Londoners
30-39
University educated
18-29 Lib supporters
Labour supporters

Split
Medium political interest
All GB adults

Those voting out
UKIP
60+
Social grades C2DE
Non university educated
East England
Midlands
50-59
40-49
North England
Males
Southern England.
What does the bit in bold mean? If all GB adults are split how come there are so many of them under various guises in both the leave and remain groups.
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  #76  
Old 05.06.2016, 14:47
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Re: Brexit - did your vote change

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But how will leaving the EU change any of that?
In fact if today's employment laws based on EU standards are rescinded then this situation will likely worsen?
Examples;
  • ‘employees’ must be given a written statement setting out their pay and working conditions
  • a maximum 48-hour working week
  • a right to paid annual leave
  • women’s pay and pension rights

Source the TUC

Just noticed post #44 said much the same
Why would they worsen ? I say they will get better can you demonstrate against that ? The example that I used in question would largely be unaffected by the directives your putting out above as they affect bigger companies. a one man electrician or plumber doesnt care one jot about "the maximum 48 hour working week" or "a right to annual paid leave" as he is his own company and needs to make ends meet. Its one of the problems of EU directives is that they are massively broad brush and bear no relation to small one man bands.

The main use case of my example though isnt really about the leave / remain point, its that the survey used could almost sum up the In campaign: London based, ABC1, affluent people are there while old white northerners are not. Instead of engaging the old Northerns though, the message is clear: look, you useless northern monkeys, you dont understand economics, you dont understand europe, in fact you dont understand much. so just take it from us higher classes that your little wage will get a lot littler if you leave. now go and get your flat cap on and piss of down to watch the whippets you probably-racist small people.
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  #77  
Old 05.06.2016, 14:53
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Re: Brexit - did your vote change

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Why would they worsen ? I say they will get better can you demonstrate against that ? The example that I used in question would largely be unaffected by the directives your putting out above as they affect bigger companies. a one man electrician or plumber doesnt care one jot about "the maximum 48 hour working week" or "a right to annual paid leave" as he is his own company and needs to make ends meet. Its one of the problems of EU directives is that they are massively broad brush and bear no relation to small one man bands.

The main use case of my example though isnt really about the leave / remain point, its that the survey used could almost sum up the In campaign: London based, ABC1, affluent people are there while old white northerners are not. Instead of engaging the old Northerns though, the message is clear: look, you useless northern monkeys, you dont understand economics, you dont understand europe, in fact you dont understand much. so just take it from us higher classes that your little wage will get a lot littler if you leave. now go and get your flat cap on and piss of down to watch the whippets you probably-racist small people.
"The example that I used in question would largely be unaffected" But you wrote "as a plumber have watched your wages go down over the last ten years"

Now this plumber you quote has suddenly become self employed
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  #78  
Old 05.06.2016, 15:00
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Re: Brexit - did your vote change

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"The example that I used in question would largely be unaffected" But you wrote "as a plumber have watched your wages go down over the last ten years"

Now this plumber you quote has suddenly become self employed
your kidding right ? its a turn of phrase your telling me you didnt understand that when i talked about "a" (singular) plumber the fact that I use the term "wages" has voided the whole argument ?

I'll make it simple. A plumber in the UK is a one man band. he has a limited company. from this he draws a low salary normally taking the rest as dividends so as to be more tax efficient. thats the income. whatever the salary / dividends breakdown his income is defined by the hourly rate he is charging. this has gone down over the last 15 years due to the increased availability of black market and people working for a lower hourly rate.

Is that any clearer ?
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Old 05.06.2016, 15:18
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Re: Brexit - did your vote change

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your kidding right ? its a turn of phrase your telling me you didnt understand that when i talked about "a" (singular) plumber the fact that I use the term "wages" has voided the whole argument ?

I'll make it simple. A plumber in the UK is a one man band. he has a limited company. from this he draws a low salary normally taking the rest as dividends so as to be more tax efficient. thats the income. whatever the salary / dividends breakdown his income is defined by the hourly rate he is charging. this has gone down over the last 15 years due to the increased availability of black market and people working for a lower hourly rate.

Is that any clearer ?
"the fact that I use the term "wages" has voided the whole argument ?" Congratulations, you got it.

If the EU based laws I quoted are rescinded then this poor (self employed) plumber will face increased price competition from the bigger companies offering the same services who now have lower costs.

Somehow the whole slant of your argument points to a uniquely British problem that is unchanged by EU membership.
In the US if a poor man sees somebody drive by in a new Cadillac then he says "Someday I will be a success and have one of those".
Whereas in Britain he says "look at that toff; I hate him"

"I'll make it simple." but you do not explain why you think leaving the EU will help him?
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Old 05.06.2016, 16:26
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Re: Brexit - did your vote change

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What does the bit in bold mean? If all GB adults are split how come there are so many of them under various guises in both the leave and remain groups.
It says that the adult population as a whole is split.
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