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View Poll Results: Did your vote change?
Don't be stupid: I was going to vote Leave and still will 28 34.15%
Don't be stupid: I was going to vote Remain and still will 32 39.02%
I changed from Leave/Undecided to Remain 1 1.22%
I changed from Remain/Undecided to Leave 6 7.32%
Still undecided 4 4.88%
Other 11 13.41%
Voters: 82. You may not vote on this poll

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  #141  
Old 06.06.2016, 15:12
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Re: Brexit - did your vote change

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....and, in plain black and white, the clear, stated intention to create a single European state (federated, but still...)....
Where in any actual legally binding document does it say that? It may or may not have been the vision of some individuals but is not what is contained within the treaties establishing the European Union and is clearly stated in the UK renegotiation that this is not the case and anyway doesn't apply to the UK.

The treaty refers to "an ever closer union". The UK is now exempt from this and in any event most legal authorities hold this is not the same as a single state.

Here for example. https://fullfact.org/europe/explaini...-closer-union/
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  #142  
Old 06.06.2016, 15:17
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Re: Brexit - did your vote change

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why would it need to?
I think he is referring to the fact that according to the polls Remain will easily win in London.
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  #143  
Old 06.06.2016, 15:18
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Re: Brexit - did your vote change

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why would it need to?
oh, don't get me wrong, I am for one looking forward to the Brexit when the island people will discover that they are neither needed for the functioning of the EU, nor are they missed. Somehow things will continue but the grumpy Britain will throw its last tantrum looking for attention. Then its game over.
London always felt different to me...a tad more rational and definitely more cosmopolitan.
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  #144  
Old 06.06.2016, 15:42
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Re: Brexit - did your vote change

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oh, don't get me wrong, I am for one looking forward to the Brexit when the island people will discover that they are neither needed for the functioning of the EU, nor are they missed. Somehow things will continue but the grumpy Britain will throw its last tantrum looking for attention. Then its game over.
London always felt different to me...a tad more rational and definitely more cosmopolitan.
Yes, I think both UK and EU will be better off separated. It is very much like an abusive relationship with the UK being threatened and intimidated in not leaving, but afterwards after a period of adjustment, both would be better off.

De Gaulle vetoed the UK's original entry and his (publicly stated) reasoning identifies some of the factors which underlie the schism between the UK and the rest of the EU that remains even today:

“The Treaty of Rome was concluded between six continental states, states which are, economically speaking, one may say, of the same nature. Indeed, whether it be a matter of their industrial or agricultural production, their external exchanges, their habits or their commercial clientele, their living or working conditions, there is between them much more resemblance than difference…

“England in effect is insular, she is maritime, she is linked through her exchanges, her markets, her supply lines to the most diverse and often the most distant countries; she pursues essentially industrial and commercial activities, and only slight agricultural ones. She has in all her doings very marked and very original habits and traditions."
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  #145  
Old 06.06.2016, 15:47
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Re: Brexit - did your vote change

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It is very much like an abusive relationship with the UK being threatened
Wait till you see the passport control for Brits in the EU countries, then you'll see what abuse is
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  #146  
Old 06.06.2016, 15:52
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Re: Brexit - did your vote change

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Wait till you see the passport control for Brits in the EU countries, then you'll see what abuse is
The UK is a very open country, I expect this would be reciprocated in most EU countries.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ngdom.png#.jpg

Last edited by 3Wishes; 06.06.2016 at 21:42. Reason: changed huge photo to link
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  #147  
Old 06.06.2016, 15:55
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Re: Brexit - did your vote change

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The UK is a very open country, I expect this would be reciprocated in most EU countries.
Oh, so you actually expect to be out of the EU obligations, but to keep all the perks? Nice try, but..er..no.
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  #148  
Old 06.06.2016, 15:59
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Re: Brexit - did your vote change

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Oh, so you actually expect to be out of the EU obligations, but to keep all the perks? Nice try, but..er..no.
visa-free travel is not the same as freedom of movement/establishment.

Notice all the countries where Brits can travel which do not require in exchange that we give them rights to make laws for us.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...izens.png#.jpg

you make the mistake with many others that just because we have something currently with the EU, that we would not have had it without. the UK is a more free-trading country than most others in the EU.

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  #149  
Old 06.06.2016, 17:03
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Re: Brexit - did your vote change

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you make the mistake with many others that just because we have something currently with the EU, that we would not have had it without.
Good luck annoying Merkel by telling her her house is shit and leaving and then asking to come back for dinner the next day.
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  #150  
Old 06.06.2016, 17:07
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Re: Brexit - did your vote change

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Good luck annoying Merkel by telling her her house is shit and leaving and then asking to come back for dinner the next day.
Not sure that's how self interested parties make their decisions. But of course bilateral treaties can take years to formulate and they wouldn't do the job of actual EU membership which creates huge wealth for the UK.
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  #151  
Old 06.06.2016, 17:23
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Re: Brexit - did your vote change

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Not sure that's how self interested parties make their decisions.
The EU will be extra-careful to create enough pain for Britain to discourage others from following. Its that simple really.
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  #152  
Old 06.06.2016, 17:25
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Re: Brexit - did your vote change

I don't think the remain voters should be too worried.

Even if the vote goes for Brexit, I'm sure cameron will not invoke article 50 immediately as he claimed, but instead MPs will block, negotiations will be scrambled and a new deal will emerge and the Brits will be asked to vote again since they gave the wrong answer the last time...
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  #153  
Old 06.06.2016, 18:01
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Re: Brexit - did your vote change

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I don't think the remain voters should be too worried.

Even if the vote goes for Brexit, I'm sure cameron will not invoke article 50 immediately as he claimed, but instead MPs will block, negotiations will be scrambled and a new deal will emerge and the Brits will be asked to vote again since they gave the wrong answer the last time...
That's the European standard, isn't it?
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  #154  
Old 06.06.2016, 18:04
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Re: Brexit - did your vote change

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I don't think the remain voters should be too worried.
I do. Most likely scenario imo is Cameron resigning and Bojo taking over and invoking articule 50 pretty well immediately.
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  #155  
Old 06.06.2016, 19:06
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Re: Brexit - did your vote change

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You will soon if you wish to.

Personally, if the £ plummets again as preditcted if BREXIT does go through, we will be up **** creek without a paddle. But this is not the reason for our vote- but for our children and grand-children (who do however have the right to double nationality that most UK kids won't have).
The UK children and grandchildren, present and future, are already up the creek as you put it. The stagnation and the failure of a correction in the housing/rental market means no one can afford to buy, certainly not the kids.. but then if they go to Uni they'll be paying off those scandalous loans until their 40s anyway - so they're screwed either way.

Cameron spoke today of an economic bomb, hilarious really as its been ticking for many a year now. The personal debt in the UK is at 2008 levels and a bomb is exactly what is needed for the country to right itself and house/ rental prices come into line with salaries. Remaining in the EU has locked us a period of stability, but stability for who exactly? Maybe for the rich high-flying set in London, but certainly not for the rest of the country.

Anyway, I'd like to see Mark Carney earn his keep, the EU has allowed him to coast.. easy does it lads, don't upset anyone in the Tory party, sod everyone else.
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  #156  
Old 06.06.2016, 19:18
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Re: Brexit - did your vote change

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The UK children and grandchildren, present and future, are already up the creek as you put it. The stagnation and the failure of a correction in the housing/rental market means no one can afford to buy, certainly not the kids.. but then if they go to Uni they'll be paying off those scandalous loans until their 40s anyway - so they're screwed either way.
They are only screwed whilst sill policies to lend 20%/40% interest free from the government remain. Plus housing benefits supporting high rents, rather than have rents at what the market can bare.

Prices can never be unaffordable for very long, if 20% deposits were the minimum & couples could only save 20k - average sale prices would be 100K all so simple, allowing 5% deposits is the real issue here.
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  #157  
Old 06.06.2016, 20:25
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Re: Brexit - did your vote change

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So if we hadnt joined the EU all those years ago, where do you think these positions would be now ? we're saying what, that we just wouldnt have thought have introducing a Womens pay and pensions right in the following 40 years ? That a maximum working week wouldn't have entered Britain's mind ? We would have just sat there, twiddling our thumbs occasionally going "ooooh!" in amazement as the incredibly fluid and dynamic European Union introduced laws which basically move in line with how society has changed naturally, yet Britain would still have sat there scratching its head just not doing anything ?

Outside the EU we might introduce a 48 hour working week. maybe 40, perhaps 52. But one thing would be sure: we would introduce it, not an unelected set of officials in Brussles.
Nope, guess you would live like these poor people in Switzerland, Norway ... you can't seriously want to risk that?
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  #158  
Old 06.06.2016, 20:40
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Re: Brexit - did your vote change

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You mean rules that are there for your protection preventing products being dangerous or containing hazardous ingredients? Those that ensure you know how to safely use products without causing a hazard to yourself and others?
yes, those. Don't know how I survived without them outside the EU.
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  #159  
Old 06.06.2016, 21:27
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Re: Brexit - did your vote change

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I don't think the remain voters should be too worried.

Even if the vote goes for Brexit, I'm sure cameron will not invoke article 50 immediately as he claimed, but instead MPs will block, negotiations will be scrambled and a new deal will emerge and the Brits will be asked to vote again since they gave the wrong answer the last time...
Or do like Holland did: simply ignore it
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  #160  
Old 07.06.2016, 09:47
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Re: Brexit - did your vote change

If Armageddon hits the UK housing market I'd like to rent a cheap flat in London and go there in the weekends to go to the theatre.
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