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  #2581  
Old 13.11.2016, 11:26
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Re: Will Trump be the next US President?

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"Vladimir Putin is the winner too" assuming Putin can form a good relationship with Trump then he creates a new problem for himself.
Putin has been surviving successfully for years on blaming the US for all of Russia's problems; now who will he blame when these problems do not go away?
EU. It seems convenient for any other populists.
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Old 13.11.2016, 11:50
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Re: Will Trump be the next US President?

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EU. It seems convenient for any other populists.
True but it will mean a big change to the rhetoric and any change automatically damages credibility.

He can hardly say "we were wrong about the US, it was the EU all the time!"

Plus for the US Putin could easily personalise it - hate Obama!
With the EU it is more amorphous; how to choose who to hate and how to manage that change.
Suppose he picks Merkel and she gets voted out next year?
Or Juncker; is he widely known in Russia?
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Old 13.11.2016, 12:40
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Re: Will Trump be the next US President?

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True but it will mean a big change to the rhetoric and any change automatically damages credibility.

He can hardly say "we were wrong about the US, it was the EU all the time!"

Plus for the US Putin could easily personalise it - hate Obama!
With the EU it is more amorphous; how to choose who to hate and how to manage that change.
Suppose he picks Merkel and she gets voted out next year?
Or Juncker; is he widely known in Russia?
The big myth of credibility. I do not think it is a value that Brexiters, Svp, Trump and followers and Putin would count on nor work with. You snooze you lose. In the era of an instant (probably uninformed) click you only need about 5sec snooze. The roots of willingness to follow what at the end not good for the voters, have started years ago, when the snooze time was still a couple of days. And we all created the space and opportunity for this.
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  #2584  
Old 13.11.2016, 13:46
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Re: Will Trump be the next US President?

just for funzies.

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  #2585  
Old 13.11.2016, 15:26
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Re: Will Trump be the next US President?

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Thanks

It's a good article and by and large, I agree with many of her points. I see a lot of my family in this. I've just got a copy of Hillbilly Elegy to read - will be interesting.
It was an interesting read for sure...what can I say, under college education and blue collar jobs are not enough to have a middle class life style. This is the world we live in.

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Back when blue-collar voters used to be solidly Democratic (1930–1970), good jobs were at the core of the progressive agenda. A modern industrial policy would follow Germany’s path. (Want really good scissors? Buy German.) Massive funding is needed for community college programs linked with local businesses to train workers for well-paying new economy jobs. Clinton mentioned this approach, along with 600,000 other policy suggestions. She did not stress it.

Avoid the Temptation to Write Off Blue-Collar Resentment as Racism
Economic resentment has fueled racial anxiety that, in some Trump supporters (and Trump himself), bleeds into open racism. But to write off WWC anger as nothing more than racism is intellectual comfort food, and it is dangerous.

National debates about policing are fueling class tensions today in precisely the same way they did in the 1970s, when college kids derided policemen as “pigs.” This is a recipe for class conflict. Being in the police is one of the few good jobs open to Americans without a college education. Police get solid wages, great benefits, and a respected place in their communities. For elites to write them off as racists is a telling example of how, although race- and sex-based insults are no longer acceptable in polite society, class-based insults still are.

I do not defend police who kill citizens for selling cigarettes. But the current demonization of the police underestimates the difficulty of ending police violence against communities of color. Police need to make split-second decisions in life-threatening situations. I don’t. If I had to, I might make some poor decisions too.

Saying this is so unpopular that I risk making myself a pariah among my friends on the left coast. But the biggest risk today for me and other Americans is continued class cluelessness. If we don’t take steps to bridge the class culture gap, when Trump proves unable to bring steel back to Youngstown, Ohio, the consequences could turn dangerous.

In 2010, while on a book tour for Reshaping the Work-Family Debate, I gave a talk about all of this at the Harvard Kennedy School. The woman who ran the speaker series, a major Democratic operative, liked my talk. “You are saying exactly what the Democrats need to hear,” she mused, “and they’ll never listen.” I hope now they will.
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  #2586  
Old 13.11.2016, 15:33
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Re: Will Trump be the next US President?

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It was an interesting read for sure...what can I say, under college education and blue collar jobs are not enough to have a middle class life style. This is the world we live in.
For my parents' generation, they were. Anyone with intelligence and the right attitude could make their way from a blue collar job into a decent middle class job by their thirties or forties, without having to waste years of their lives at university.

Now all the middle ranking jobs are snapped up by smartarse kids who don't know their arses from their elbows, and the blue collar jobs - which provided the first foothold for the ambitious - are going to foreigners who work for less and don't trouble their employers with pesky things like employee rights or unions or any of that nonsense.

The working and lower middle classes have had the rug pulled from under them and they're pissed off. Now they're letting the world know it.
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  #2587  
Old 13.11.2016, 15:46
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Re: Will Trump be the next US President?

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For my parents' generation, they were. Anyone with intelligence and the right attitude could make their way from a blue collar job into a decent middle class job by their thirties or forties, without having to waste years of their lives at university.

Now all the middle ranking jobs are snapped up by smartarse kids who don't know their arses from their elbows, and the blue collar jobs - which provided the first foothold for the ambitious - are going to foreigners who work for less and don't trouble their employers with pesky things like employee rights or unions or any of that nonsense.

The working and lower middle classes have had the rug pulled from under them and they're pissed off. Now they're letting the world know it.
That is pretty much how I see it too. The "blue collar" label is a bit of a misnomer, I think it is more "Entry level with a chance to rise up the ladder".

Trump danced a sort of American haka for them, and they liked it. Clinton stood in place and showed that the only dance is the one they do in her dance club.
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  #2588  
Old 13.11.2016, 15:48
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Re: Will Trump be the next US President?

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It was an interesting read for sure...what can I say, under college education and blue collar jobs are not enough to have a middle class life style. This is the world we live in.
I beg to differ on this. There's still a breed that, despite accumulating substantial financial wealth, will always see themselves as working class. Even though they no longer have to work, they actively enjoy getting their hands dirty and doing "a proper day's work". I know several of them, was talking to one til the early hours of this morning, and will be meeting up with two others this week for a catch up.
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  #2589  
Old 13.11.2016, 16:24
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Re: Will Trump be the next US President?

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I beg to differ on this. There's still a breed that, despite accumulating substantial financial wealth, will always see themselves as working class. Even though they no longer have to work, they actively enjoy getting their hands dirty and doing "a proper day's work". I know several of them, was talking to one til the early hours of this morning, and will be meeting up with two others this week for a catch up.
Probably you're right, but I'm not that pedantic when it comes to class classifications. The whole class thing is a bit of a funny thing tbh, worth mentioning only to amuse ourselves. We're all people, so I suppose we do like to get our hands "dirty".
I was referring to a certain life style that (in my view) is no longer possible under the same circumstances - the article was very explicit on these. Those jobs, supposing they are not yet gone, don't offer the same security and financial comfort anymore.
Or at least not for the majority.

It's interesting that Hillary did bring up those issues - creating "good" jobs, education, college fees etc etc. I guess people didn't buy into this, instead they bought into Trump's even vaguer promises like "Make America great again"...

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  #2590  
Old 13.11.2016, 16:30
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Re: Will Trump be the next US President?

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It's interesting that Hillary did bring up this issues - creating "good" jobs, education, college fees etc etc. I guess people didn't buy into this, instead they bought into Trump's even vaguer promises aka "Make America great again"...
Which is a complete misnomer because nobody said America wasn't great. I do despair at times...
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  #2591  
Old 13.11.2016, 16:40
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Re: Will Trump be the next US President?

Good points.

"But women don’t stand together: WWC women voted for Trump over Clinton by a whopping 28-point margin — 62% to 34%. If they’d split 50-50, she would have won. Class trumps gender, and it’s driving American politics."

She neglects the fact that many WWC women are intimidated by women who hold traditionally male roles. Same goes for so many men who think of themselves as liberal/feminist. Misogyny runs deep - there are many studies out there showing how American men and women prefer to have male bosses over female.

The US is not yet ready for the first female president.




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I beg to differ on this. There's still a breed that, despite accumulating substantial financial wealth, will always see themselves as working class. Even though they no longer have to work, they actively enjoy getting their hands dirty and doing "a proper day's work". I know several of them, was talking to one til the early hours of this morning, and will be meeting up with two others this week for a catch up.
And?
Nothing to do with greenmount's post.
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  #2592  
Old 13.11.2016, 17:28
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Re: Will Trump be the next US President?

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The working and lower middle classes have had the rug pulled from under them and they're pissed off. Now they're letting the world know it.
I get that- and yet. Would you deny that in the East of England, the lcoal unemployed just refuse to go and pick cabbages and cauliflowers- because, like the rug ... it is beneath them.

With my generation there were jobs for all those who left school without being particularly able to read and write, and were not, as we used to say 'not academic' the mines, naval shipyards, textile mills and other industries (and tragically, the Army - a good day to remember, 1000s and 1000s) Those jobs are gone and won't be coming back - and also the youngsters would not want them anyhow. What do you propose they do?
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  #2593  
Old 13.11.2016, 18:00
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Re: Will Trump be the next US President?

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Which is a complete misnomer because nobody said America wasn't great. I do despair at times...
Well, it was his main slogan (and "platform", and..) during the campaign, wasn't it? Nothing of any substance or actually addressing the issues..
If you heard him talking about how the USA got the worst possible deals in relations with other countries you would have thought that USA had the bargaining power of Slovakia, no, even better - he was talking about Slovakia. I did pay attention... Funny, tragic, people bought into his rhetorics. Yeah, big lies sell well.
  #2594  
Old 13.11.2016, 18:02
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Re: Will Trump be the next US President?

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That is pretty much how I see it too. The "blue collar" label is a bit of a misnomer, I think it is more "Entry level with a chance to rise up the ladder".

Trump danced a sort of American haka for them, and they liked it. Clinton stood in place and showed that the only dance is the one they do in her dance club.
It is clear that Trump reached a lot of people.

Will be challenging for him to deliver; I hope he does.

Interesting that one of these body language experts studied some of his videoed speeches and said he clearly believed what he was saying.

I have known salesmen like that; their problem was that while they clearly believed what they were saying at the time it was a fleeting thing. A short while later the belief was gone
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Old 13.11.2016, 18:03
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Re: Will Trump be the next US President?

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I get that- and yet. Would you deny that in the East of England, the lcoal unemployed just refuse to go and pick cabbages and cauliflowers- because, like the rug ... it is beneath them.
I would. Perhaps refusing to pick cabbages while being paid £5 a day and living in a caravan with 20 other workers is beneath them, but I don't buy into the myth of the lazy British working classes refusing work on a matter of principle.

It's a convenient excuse to pay peanuts to foreigners and avoid the benefits acquired by working people over decades of collective bargaining.
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Old 13.11.2016, 18:13
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Re: Will Trump be the next US President?

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what can I say, under college education and blue collar jobs are not enough to have a middle class life style.
They are in Switzerland.

Tom
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Old 13.11.2016, 18:18
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Re: Will Trump be the next US President?

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They are in Switzerland.

Tom
And I hope things will stay this way.
Unfortunately, not many places are like Switzerland. (there are so many socio-economic reasons for that, sometimes it's like comparing apples and oranges)
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Old 13.11.2016, 18:25
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Re: Will Trump be the next US President?

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The big myth of credibility. I do not think it is a value that Brexiters, Svp, Trump and followers and Putin would count on nor work with. You snooze you lose. In the era of an instant (probably uninformed) click you only need about 5sec snooze. The roots of willingness to follow what at the end not good for the voters, have started years ago, when the snooze time was still a couple of days. And we all created the space and opportunity for this.
"In the era of an instant (probably uninformed) click you only need about 5sec snooze. " I can buy into that for the US and W.Europe but I am not sure Putin's supporters in Russia are there yet. Maybe they are, vKontakte claims over ten million visitors per week. Facebook claims twenty million users, impressive but still less than 15%.

If Trump does follow up and deport millions of illegals then who will take over their jobs?
I doubt unemployed blue collar workers will be enthusiastic to take such a pay drop from their old jobs and I do not blame them
  #2599  
Old 13.11.2016, 18:38
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Re: Will Trump be the next US President?

Everybody is in a risk of having the rug pulled from under their feet. People can occupy themselves by being angry or thinking that voting populists will help them. I think that's the shock that loads are going to experience, anger will not get them anything and the populists they voted for will not root for them, either. They are just abused to help somebody to gain power. I do no think unions will help against competition from abroad, or pushing borders closed for protection. Socialist ideas seem nostalgic, inefficient and anachronically romantic to new generations. People will have to start to figure out how to be the least dependent on the system. Unqualified means dependent. Maybe the option of edu will appeal to some young kids who would be otherwise traditionally pushed by their families into unqualified blue color labor despite of the kids potential and dreams.
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Old 13.11.2016, 18:59
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Re: Will Trump be the next US President?

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The US is not yet ready for the first female president.

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Exactly.

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Everybody is in a risk of having the rug pulled from under their feet. People can occupy themselves by being angry or thinking that voting populists will help them.
It's the trend, anger replaces a lot of things. It's easier.
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