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  #121  
Old 16.07.2016, 20:03
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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BREXIT for example
Brexit was more the opposite of a putsch.
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  #122  
Old 16.07.2016, 20:13
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

Apparently there were rumors about dissident generals already back in april, and in august they were gonna retire a lot of people in the army, that's why it happened now maybe. It wouldn't surprise me if Erdogan worked to trigger the coup, even though he did not organize it, now he has the chance to purge the last "gülenists".
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  #123  
Old 16.07.2016, 20:20
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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It's good to have these lists compiled ready, for when you need them ;-)
I'm sure Erdogan has read Machiavelli, too.

As for being sorry that the coup failed....

In 1944, on June 20th, a coup by German Generals to kill Adolf Hitler with a bomb failed (because the meeting had been moved from a bunker to a wooden shed and the Führer stood at the opposing side of a very massive concrete table when the bomb went off). They considered the war to be lost and wanted to prevent the worst (they didn't even know about the Manhattan project...).
Was it a good thing that the democratically elected leader was spared of his fate at this time? After all, more German soldiers died after that fateful day in June before the end of the war than died in the almost five years up to that point.

My history teacher once quoted a historian, saying the Germans "...had to drink up the cup of hemlock". Else there'd have been conspiracy-theories abound just like after WW1.

So, Turkey, too, will now have to drink up their cup of hemlock.
They wanted Erdogan, now they got him and he's going to stay for a while.

We'll probably see parts of Syria and Irak being de-facto annexed by Turkey in the not-so-distant future.

Similarities to past events and characters in history are purely coincidental ;-)
The problem with that is that the Generals did not want to to kill Hitler and replace him with Democracy, they wanted the old Status Quo back with Germany a absolute monarchy and the privileges of the Junkers social class.
That was never going to happen, one of the reasons the allies never supported their cause.
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  #124  
Old 16.07.2016, 20:31
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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A putsche is almost impossible to control once it gains momentum. He could have staged it, but what would have happened if the rest of the armed forces would have joined in, together with the public?

That is certainly what the plotters were probably hoping for, but instead they miscalculated and the whole thing fizzled out. So I don't think it was staged, because the risk of it blowing out of control would have been too great, especially given his dip in the popularity ratings.

You only play a move like that when you have a strong hand.
"You only play a move like that when you have a strong hand." Or when you are a risk taking megalomaniac with an unshakeable belief in your own destiny
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  #125  
Old 16.07.2016, 22:14
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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The problem with that is that the Generals did not want to to kill Hitler and replace him with Democracy, they wanted the old Status Quo back with Germany a absolute monarchy and the privileges of the Junkers social class.
That was never going to happen, one of the reasons the allies never supported their cause.
That was certainly one problem with the plan. Them being mostly descendants of the pre-WW1-nobility certainly didn't help in that respect ;-)

But the Allies at that point (IMO) had already set their sight on Berlin anyway. I don't think they'd have accepted anything but unconditional surrender, whoever was in charge in Berlin.
IIRC, there actually was an Allied conference, where this was agreed upon and set in writing.

Operation Overlord happened just two weeks earlier.

As I said - I'm somewhat of a supporter of the "people get what they voted for"-concept.
Germany voted for that Austrian at some point and we're still dealing (to some degree) with the mess he left.
Turkey voted for Erdogan, Europe tried to play him and used him as a counterweight to Islamists in the region and now everybody in Europe has to deal with what they got.

Needless to say that it doesn't take very much from this point for all of this to end in tears (not only for Turkey, that's a given) - but for all of us.
If you had plans of visiting Istanbul etc. - make it sooner rather than later - and take lots of pictures....
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  #126  
Old 16.07.2016, 22:44
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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If that is the state of your mind you need psychological help.
you can't say that to a mod
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  #127  
Old 16.07.2016, 22:44
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

Turkish Secretary of Labor claims USA behind the coup:

https://twitter.com/TurkeyUntold/sta...62653238300672

I suspect this line of rhetoric is going to die quickly but we'll see. Nonetheless, if Turkey is going to descend into autocracy then they need to get the boot from NATO. WW1 started because of the idiocy of the free world being dragged into an aristocratic conflict by alliances that made no sense.
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  #128  
Old 16.07.2016, 23:11
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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That was certainly one problem with the plan. Them being mostly descendants of the pre-WW1-nobility certainly didn't help in that respect ;-)

But the Allies at that point (IMO) had already set their sight on Berlin anyway. I don't think they'd have accepted anything but unconditional surrender, whoever was in charge in Berlin.
IIRC, there actually was an Allied conference, where this was agreed upon and set in writing.

Operation Overlord happened just two weeks earlier.

As I said - I'm somewhat of a supporter of the "people get what they voted for"-concept.
Germany voted for that Austrian at some point and we're still dealing (to some degree) with the mess he left.
Turkey voted for Erdogan, Europe tried to play him and used him as a counterweight to Islamists in the region and now everybody in Europe has to deal with what they got.

Needless to say that it doesn't take very much from this point for all of this to end in tears (not only for Turkey, that's a given) - but for all of us.
If you had plans of visiting Istanbul etc. - make it sooner rather than later - and take lots of pictures....
That was the conference of Casablanca in January 43, the Attentat was 20th July, the doctrine of unconditional surrender was already in place by then, but early in 1943 the war situation was still very much in the hand of Germany.
I am seeing a lot of comparisons in the Attentat of 20 July and yesterday´s Putch, both seem half assed and more "let´s have a putch and everybody will come"
Both failed, and now we may well see the islamic state of Turkey at the gates to Europe.
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  #129  
Old 16.07.2016, 23:12
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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Nonetheless, if Turkey is going to descend into autocracy then they need to get the boot from NATO. WW1 started because of the idiocy of the free world being dragged into an aristocratic conflict by alliances that made no sense.
That's not going to happen (not sure if there are even provisions for that anyway).
Because, among other things, Turkey is the frontline to the ISIS area.

Turkey got away with the Armenian genocide a hundred years ago (because of "world events") , they got away with marginalizing the Kurds ("world events") and they got away with supporting ISIS (all oil ISIS sold has and had to go through Turkey - only a complete fool would believe that nobody in Ankara knew about that and didn't get his cut) as long as it was useful.

Does anybody think there's actually something they wouldn't get away at this point?
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  #130  
Old 16.07.2016, 23:21
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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That was the conference of Casablanca in January 43, the Attentat was 20th July, the doctrine of unconditional surrender was already in place by then, but early in 1943 the war situation was still very much in the hand of Germany.
I am seeing a lot of comparisons in the Attentat of 20 July and yesterday´s Putch, both seem half assed and more "let´s have a putch and everybody will come"
Both failed, and now we may well see the islamic state of Turkey at the gates to Europe.
If the coup was fake, it's more resembling 1934 than 1944.
;-)

(As somebody hinted above)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives
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  #131  
Old 16.07.2016, 23:28
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

More I read about what happened and more I think it was a coup of Erdogan's doing. He is also very fast at putting it on Gülen, asked the American government to hand him over, meanwhile not allowing US army to use the army base..... Seems like he is going to use this as a deal.



This coup was so bad.y made, many incoherency in the planning. This doesn't add up with the strength of the Turkish army.
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  #132  
Old 17.07.2016, 00:03
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

Brexit, recession, bombings, mass killings, coup attempt... What's next? Alien invasion or just Trump
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  #133  
Old 17.07.2016, 00:15
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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Brexit, recession, bombings, mass killings, coup attempt... What's next? Alien invasion or just Trump
Toronto gonna annex Canada
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  #134  
Old 17.07.2016, 00:41
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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Brexit, recession, bombings, mass killings, coup attempt... What's next? Alien invasion or just Trump
Still waiting for "The Big One" in California, TBH.
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  #135  
Old 17.07.2016, 04:30
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

Just got back from Greece a few hours ago and it's been an interesting trip.

Last Thursday, all of the household and neighbourhood where my OH's mum lives on the northern outskirts of Athens, were woken in the early hours by fighter jets flying low over the area. OH's nephew is a lieutenant in the Greek Navy, and confirmed that evening, that we'd been woken by an incursion by Turkish fighter jets who were chased away by Greek jets. This has become ridiculously common over the last year, but it's disturbing that it's happening more often over Athens.

Just found this report on what woke us, and trust me, it was damned scary at the time...

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Greek military officials said that Turkish military aircraft made 16 incursions into Greek air space on Thursday. Eight Turkish aircraft violated Greek national air space in the northeastern, central and southeastern Aegean.

Six of the planes were in formation and the other two flying separately. Two of the aircraft were armed, according to Greek defense officials who said there were no dogfights and that Greek fighter jets chased the Turkish aircraft away.
http://www.ekathimerini.com/210453/a...space-16-times

Whilst I want Erdogan gone, and have done for a very, very long time, I'm always wary of power vacuums because you never know what's going to get sucked into the void created. I honestly believe Erdogan is one of the most dangerous megalomaniacs on the planet and could easily be the catalyst of a war in Europe. We don't yet know for sure, the ideology of the soldiers involved in this coup attempt, but it's far from over. I wouldn't put it past Erdogan to order public mass executions of those involved, and that horrifies me.

Tonight, I'm hearing reports of Turkish military fleeing to Greece and claiming asylum.

Last edited by Blueangel; 17.07.2016 at 04:43.
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  #136  
Old 17.07.2016, 09:41
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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More I read about what happened and more I think it was a coup of Erdogan's doing. He is also very fast at putting it on Gülen, asked the American government to hand him over, meanwhile not allowing US army to use the army base..... Seems like he is going to use this as a deal.



This coup was so bad.y made, many incoherency in the planning. This doesn't add up with the strength of the Turkish army.
With you on this. There's no other explanation for the incompetence of the "coup". Priority 1 for any coup is to decapitate the government - in this case that would mean arresting and/or killing Erdogan and his top level cabinet. Seizing a bunch of bridges in Istanbul is irrelevant.
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  #137  
Old 17.07.2016, 10:16
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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With you on this. There's no other explanation for the incompetence of the "coup". Priority 1 for any coup is to decapitate the government - in this case that would mean arresting and/or killing Erdogan and his top level cabinet. Seizing a bunch of bridges in Istanbul is irrelevant.
Fethullah Gülen: Turkey coup may have been 'staged' by Erdoğan regime

Source

They were too quick to blame Gulen for the coup but have yet to produce any evidence.

With the firing of nearly 3,000 judges so Turkey is heading for even less freedom and justice.
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  #138  
Old 17.07.2016, 10:21
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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Fethullah Gülen: Turkey coup may have been 'staged' by Erdoğan regime

Source

They were too quick to blame Gulen for the coup but have yet to produce any evidence.

With the firing of nearly 3,000 judges so Turkey is heading for even less freedom and justice.
Funny, that was my thought when hearing about the coup. Another ploy by Erdogan to tighten his grip on the country.
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  #139  
Old 17.07.2016, 10:29
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

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With you on this. There's no other explanation for the incompetence of the "coup". Priority 1 for any coup is to decapitate the government - in this case that would mean arresting and/or killing Erdogan and his top level cabinet. Seizing a bunch of bridges in Istanbul is irrelevant.
Yes and I love how the hotel was attacked after he left. So convenient...
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  #140  
Old 17.07.2016, 13:01
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Re: What is happening in Turkey tonight?

also interesting that you then start flying circles while rebels come from the air force and have (at least 1) F16 flying around
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