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  #141  
Old 21.07.2016, 10:18
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Re: An Islamic Terrorist Attack just Happened in (*Fill in the Blank*)

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I think the bigger lie people believed was that the UK would collapse into isolation should it vote for Brexit, hence the mass hysteria and shock after the results. In a few months time, they may even realise Brexit is a great idea afterall, and could survive a second referendum.

The UK places too much value on acrimonious whinging. The more victimised you can make yourself appear and the louder you can moan, the more legitimate your claim appears. That is a downward spiral.
But only a part of the minority actually believed that particular lie. The real lie, on either side of the BREXIT campaign was that the consequences that the other side warned of would not be the case.

Any decision has consequences, there are rarely "win-win" decisions in politics. That people were surprised that the pound tanked post BREXIT is a mystery to me.
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Old 21.07.2016, 10:22
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Re: Esto's great big thread for Discussion of Islamic Terrorism.

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Not exactly. The temporary asylum status means questions were being asked - to see whether he could get permanent asylum status or be sent back.
Doesn't matter, he was still allowed into the country so was able to commit this crime there. Also, there's so many asylum seekers in Germany that authorities can't even process their applications. There is going to be no way of removing 1.5 million people. Virtually no one is getting sent back home.
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  #143  
Old 21.07.2016, 10:32
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Re: An Islamic Terrorist Attack just Happened in (*Fill in the Blank*)

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But only a part of the minority actually believed that particular lie. The real lie, on either side of the BREXIT campaign was that the consequences that the other side warned of would not be the case.

Any decision has consequences, there are rarely "win-win" decisions in politics. That people were surprised that the pound tanked post BREXIT is a mystery to me.
With over 33 million voters, how do we assume who believed what lie?

The rate of the pound is not based on an objective value, but is subject to perceptions, reactions and over-reactions. It fluctuates for reasons as remote as an event elsewhere. I see it is now back up to $1.31, the IMF admits its Brexit threat needs to be retracted, and the FTSE breaks 6,700.

By the way, great way to derail this thread. I'll stop here before the OP gets mad.
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  #144  
Old 21.07.2016, 10:46
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Re: An Islamic Terrorist Attack just Happened in (*Fill in the Blank*)

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With over 33 million voters, how do we assume who believed what lie?

The rate of the pound is not based on an objective value, but is subject to perceptions, reactions and over-reactions. It fluctuates for reasons as remote as an event elsewhere. I see it is now back up to $1.31, the IMF admits its Brexit threat needs to be retracted, and the FTSE breaks 6,700.

By the way, great way to derail this thread. I'll stop here before the OP gets mad.
It isn't about who believed what lie, Bremain lost, so less than half 33 million, presumably not all of them recognised the lie. The math is pretty simple.

Not really a derailing of the thread. As I understand him, Esto is of the opinion that too many Muslims/Islamists have been allowed into Europe, and that the politicos have misrepresented the risk factor. I am furthermore inclined to agree with him if that is in fact his position.
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  #145  
Old 21.07.2016, 11:03
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Re: Esto's great big thread for Discussion of Islamic Terrorism.

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This attacker came into Germany and may have lied about his nationality, age and name. A good start don't you think? He was given temporary asylum status, housing, welfare benefits, language lessons, a foster family and an apprenticeship position. And then he went onto a train and started swinging axe at people.

There's no way of knowing if he had a legitimate case for asylum, yet Germany let him in, no questions asked. Now multiply this by hundreds of thousands and you get the picture.

I'm not saying Muslim migrants can't come to Europe, they are welcome to come, just send a CV first. Like the Swiss model. They mustn't expect any special treatment on account of their religion. And finally, they should fit in, or fü¢k off.
I am not saying there isn't anything wrong about how the whole process of Asylum has been handled in Europe, but its clear that tarring every asylum seeker with same brush is not the way to handle the crisis either. I do understand your concerns, but the problem is not with asylum seekers its with IS and Radical Islamic ideology. The objective of these fundamentalists is to cause a rift between western secular thinking and the Islamic world. The people carrying out the attacks are often very weak minded and susceptible individuals who have been manipulated into this. Don't for a second think that the Muslim communities in Europe rejoice when these attacks occur, because it affects them and their freedoms as much as it affects our western values and freedoms.
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  #146  
Old 21.07.2016, 11:11
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Re: Esto's great big thread for Discussion of Islamic Terrorism.

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I am not saying there isn't anything wrong about how the whole process of Asylum has been handled in Europe,
I think by the standards applied earlier, your questioning of that process could qualify you as borderline racist bigot? Doesn't make sense, does it?

I think other people were just pointing out the mismanagement of immigration and were called out as racist bigots.
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  #147  
Old 21.07.2016, 11:26
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Re: Esto's great big thread for Discussion of Islamic Terrorism.

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I think by the standards applied earlier, your questioning of that process could qualify you as borderline racist bigot? Doesn't make sense, does it?

I think other people were just pointing out the mismanagement of immigration and were called out as racist bigots.
No, other people were saying that no Refugees or Asylum seekers should be allowed into Europe, or that they should be processed at the first safe country and held there, Turkey or Greece. Or that all muslims should be kicked out or registered and monitored. I am not sure whether you are one of them, but I know others here were saying things like its serves them right when boats were sinking in the Med and people were dying.

I am certainly not racist for saying the whole way the crisis has been handled has been wrong and it required a lot more thought then actually was applied.

So please don't try to call me out Phos, because you are the one who seems to be misinterpreting here.
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  #148  
Old 21.07.2016, 11:50
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Re: Esto's great big thread for Discussion of Islamic Terrorism.

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No, other people were saying that no Refugees or Asylum seekers should be allowed into Europe, or that they should be processed at the first safe country and held there, Turkey or Greece. Or that all muslims should be kicked out or registered and monitored. I am not sure whether you are one of them, but I know others here were saying things like its serves them right when boats were sinking in the Med and people were dying.

I am certainly not racist for saying the whole way the crisis has been handled has been wrong and it required a lot more thought then actually was applied.

So please don't try to call me out Phos, because you are the one who seems to be misinterpreting here.
Not sure who said what. Allegations of racism are overplayed to a point of shutting down rational discussions. When that keeps happening, it loses it value. So no, I wasn't calling you out as one. Although at this rate, it may not be a worse thing someone can be called anymore.
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  #149  
Old 21.07.2016, 19:16
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Re: Discussion of Islamic Terrorism.

There are some people who can't even bring themselves to admit or discuss the problem of Islamic Terrorism in a rational way. When the name-calling of everyone "Islamaphobe" and "Racist" wears thin, then they resort to censorship and other similar tactics to avoid and honest and intellectual debate about the problem.

Even in Germany, the train axe attack by a guy with an ISIS flag at home and was yelling "Allu Akbar" as he stabbed people, some Left-wing won't even call it a "terror" attack and appear to be more concerned with the treatment of the perpetrators than the victims


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Avoiding the term 'terror'

German media have been describing the event as an "attack," not a "terror attack."

The former Federal minister, Renate Künast of the pro-immigration Green Party, got the ball rolling just two hours after the incident, asking on Twitter why the police had to shoot rather than arrest the attacker. She made the remark without any detailed knowledge of the investigation and the situation at the scene of the crime. She simply presented the criminal as a victim, and the internet was all too happy to indulge in the back and forth.

Last edited by Ace1; 21.07.2016 at 20:01. Reason: Removing meta-stuff. Please do not keep going on about it in here.
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  #150  
Old 21.07.2016, 19:19
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Re: Discussion of Islamic Terrorism.

On the other hand, I think people are rightly concerned that attacks are used to propagate hate against Muslims in general and kick off something that makes the situation even worse.
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  #151  
Old 21.07.2016, 19:22
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Re: Discussion of Islamic Terrorism.

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On the other hand, I think people are rightly concerned that attacks are used to propagate hate against Muslims in general and kick off something that makes the situation even worse.
Good point. Which is why there needs to be an honest, intelligent discussion on how to solve the problem. Obviously far-right rhetoric of "ban all Muslims" is not the answer. But the far Left's rhetoric of "there is no problem" is just as dangerous.

Last edited by Ace1; 21.07.2016 at 20:02. Reason: Removing meta-stuff. Please do not keep going on about it in here.
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  #152  
Old 21.07.2016, 20:16
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Re: Esto's great big thread for Discussion of Islamic Terrorism.

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Politie is flemish/dutch
Police is french

Belgium is kinda bilingual...... tho' I learnt the hard way too in 1986 that the flemish don't like it when you speak french to them.....that deep was the rift then....
They're used to it, though, and as long as you have an obviously foreign accent they're not generally too upset by it. I imagine these days, though (it was back in the '80s when I lived there) that they mostly switch to English in that case.

But yeah, best not to let them think you're a Francophone. The only exception I came across was one time I visited Bruges with my wife - the place was packed with British tourists, mostly drunk or well on the way to it, so I ordered lunch in my best French, on the basis that they may not like me but at least I'd very served quicker that way.
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  #153  
Old 22.07.2016, 11:51
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Re: Esto's great big thread for Discussion of Islamic Terrorism.

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They're used to it, though, and as long as you have an obviously foreign accent they're not generally too upset by it. I imagine these days, though (it was back in the '80s when I lived there) that they mostly switch to English in that case.

But yeah, best not to let them think you're a Francophone. The only exception I came across was one time I visited Bruges with my wife - the place was packed with British tourists, mostly drunk or well on the way to it, so I ordered lunch in my best French, on the basis that they may not like me but at least I'd very served quicker that way.

Alas, I didn't have much of an accent and passed easily as francophone. My great aunt, whom I was visiting then on my Interrailtour in St.Trond/ Sint Truiden, advised me to open the conversation with: Sorry, I am a tourist or Sorry, I am Swiss...and from then on no problem at all and the people were really helpful and chatty in french with me in the flemish part of Belgium.
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  #154  
Old 22.07.2016, 13:07
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Re: Discussion of Islamic Terrorism.

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Good point. Which is why there needs to be an honest, intelligent discussion on how to solve the problem. Obviously far-right rhetoric of "ban all Muslims" is not the answer. But the far Left's rhetoric of "there is no problem" is just as dangerous.
I don't think that the lefty's don't agree that there is not a problem with Islamic Fundamentalism and that there needs to be a coherent and rational solution to confronting that problem (btw. I really wouldn't call that rhetoric, right wing hate groups and IS spout rhetoric). I also don't agree that the left want uncontrolled immigration (only maybe, the far, far left Anarchists), but whatever the process is, it needs to be fair to the millions of people that are genuinely seeking refuge within Europe's borders. What it doesn't need is right wingers constantly banging on about how incompatible Islam is with western values, or that all Muslim men are going to rape your daughters or are secretly IS operatives on suicide missions. Inevitably there are some terrible people out there (on both sides) that want to cause this rift in western secular society and make us insecure and scared. Time will tell in which way this goes, but one thing is certain we have never lived in times as unclear as these, I think that the media and social media have a lot to answer for.

It would be interesting to see if a shutdown of social media could have an impact on curbing the rhetoric of both sides, more to the point, we always hear about how IS is using social media to call for attacks on the west and how their followers should prepare, so why are these sites not automatically shut down?

btw, Esto we are trying to have an honest and intelligent discussion here :-)
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  #155  
Old 22.07.2016, 14:09
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Re: Discussion of Islamic Terrorism.

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Good point. Which is why there needs to be an honest, intelligent discussion on how to solve the problem. Obviously far-right rhetoric of "ban all Muslims" is not the answer. But the far Left's rhetoric of "there is no problem" is just as dangerous.
and this is why established & leading high-profile european Muslims need to be included as a clear/strong/positive part of the discussions in finding solutions to the problem. There are just too few Muslims being brought into discussions across Europe which is nonsensical, and if anything increases prejudice.

I wonder - like the UK Irish communities years gone by who hated the IRA, but were often afraid to be vocal due to the backlash - how wary muslims are within their local and wider religious communities. I guess too, the killing of the Scottish man who went against some extreme members of his religious community to support western values, sent a clear message out amongst Muslims to be fearful and stay quiet.
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  #156  
Old 22.07.2016, 14:34
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Re: Esto's great big thread for Discussion of Islamic Terrorism.

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No, other people were saying that no Refugees or Asylum seekers should be allowed into Europe, or that they should be processed at the first safe country and held there, Turkey or Greece. Or that all muslims should be kicked out or registered and monitored. I am not sure whether you are one of them, but I know others here were saying things like its serves them right when boats were sinking in the Med and people were dying.
That's the most hideous thing I've read on any forum this week and therefore I challenge you to back it up with a quote from any user or apologise and retract.
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  #157  
Old 22.07.2016, 17:21
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Re: Esto's great big thread for Discussion of Islamic Terrorism.

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That's the most hideous thing I've read on any forum this week and therefore I challenge you to back it up with a quote from any user or apologise and retract.
Sorry you might be right, I did look, but I also don't have all day, I could only find one reference to fish food though. Maybe I was mixing up my sources, it could have been in threads on a news site. Although I am fairly certain, certain forum members weren't shedding tears.
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  #158  
Old 22.07.2016, 18:14
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Re: Discussion of Islamic Terrorism.

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and this is why established & leading high-profile european Muslims need to be included as a clear/strong/positive part of the discussions in finding solutions to the problem. There are just too few Muslims being brought into discussions across Europe which is nonsensical, and if anything increases prejudice.

I wonder - like the UK Irish communities years gone by who hated the IRA, but were often afraid to be vocal due to the backlash - how wary muslims are within their local and wider religious communities. I guess too, the killing of the Scottish man who went against some extreme members of his religious community to support western values, sent a clear message out amongst Muslims to be fearful and stay quiet.
People with their political correctness, sets such a low bar of expectations for everybody. It seems to assume that everybody, especially Muslims, are unable to deal with difficult critical thinking on their own. So they purport to defend and speak for Muslims, and how everyone else should perceive everything. I know Muslims who are sick of it and sick of the violence in their communities, and would rather deal with it, if these same people were not trying to instil their own stupidity on everybody. This approach, which they believe is correct, is regressive and disingenuous. It really deserves to be called all kinds of nasty things.
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Old 22.07.2016, 18:47
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Re: Discussion of Islamic Terrorism.

I don't like the new title. I liked the second one.
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Old 22.07.2016, 19:53
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Re: Discussion of Islamic Terrorism.

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I don't like the new title. I liked the second one.
Pleeeeaaaase, DON'T
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