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View Poll Results: What should the Swiss government do in your opinion?
They should go ahead with introducing permit applications and quotas for EEA citizens 22 36.67%
They should introduce very high quotas for EEA nationals that in practice won't have any impact 8 13.33%
They should call for a new referendum on the EU-Swiss relationsip as a whole 16 26.67%
They should ignore 2014's referendum and not do anything 6 10.00%
I don't care, I got my C-permit or citizenship 8 13.33%
Voters: 60. You may not vote on this poll

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  #61  
Old 24.07.2016, 15:11
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

My observation is that hypocrisy and mediocrity in politics as well as the waves of nationalism push individuals to incline towards becoming "plus royaliste que le roi". Argumentation and hence, communication are reduced to a mere 'political romanticism', that is, among many others,endless contentless chatter filled with logical fallacies of every sort.
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  #62  
Old 25.07.2016, 00:14
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

What is this about the EU giving the UK a 7 year emergency emigration break?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...on-seven-years

I don't get it. Cameron asked for it, and was denied. Brexit is done, so what are they considering this now? I thought they wanted no negotiation until Article 50?

I wonder how legitimate this organization is. It goes through moods, and comes out once in a while with something because they "feel" like it? What the hell is that?
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  #63  
Old 25.07.2016, 00:32
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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Looks like there will be a new referendum.

http://www.marketplus.ch/news/switze...agreement.html
"Could" does not mean "will".

Also, it would have to pass, which is doubtful.

In short, forget it.

Tom
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  #64  
Old 25.07.2016, 00:53
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

An emergency brake a.k.a. safeguard clause is part of the deal both Switzerland and Norway, an EEA member, have.
Norway has never used it.

CH has used it several times.
https://www.eda.admin.ch/missions/mi...uegigkeit.html

No surprise in the same being offered to the UK.
It will be domestically projected as the UK getting control over immigration.
Edit: A big IF whether the Eastern European countries will agree to it.

Seven years in the EEA is perhaps enough time to prepare for and do a full Brexit.

Last edited by Kosti; 25.07.2016 at 01:23.
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  #65  
Old 25.07.2016, 00:59
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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An emergency brake a.k.a. safeguard clause is part of the deal both Switzerland and Norway, an EEA member, have.
Norway has never used it.

CH has used it several times.
https://www.eda.admin.ch/missions/mi...uegigkeit.html

No surprise in the same being offered to the UK.
It will be domestically projected as the UK getting control over immigration.

Seven years in the EEA is perhaps enough time to prepare for and do a full Brexit.

Through EFTA, a post-Brexit deal or through continuing EU membership?

I think they are missing the point of Brexit. Its not just about immigration, its about EU law supremacy.

Why do they leak this when they are supposedly not negotiating before Article 50?
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  #66  
Old 25.07.2016, 02:53
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

Maybe they can get what is being considered for the UK:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...on-seven-years
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  #67  
Old 25.07.2016, 08:31
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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An emergency brake a.k.a. safeguard clause is part of the deal both Switzerland and Norway, an EEA member, have.
Norway has never used it.

CH has used it several times.
https://www.eda.admin.ch/missions/mi...uegigkeit.html

No surprise in the same being offered to the UK.
It will be domestically projected as the UK getting control over immigration.
Edit: A big IF whether the Eastern European countries will agree to it.

Seven years in the EEA is perhaps enough time to prepare for and do a full Brexit.
Had, not have. The only one still is the one for Romania and Bulgaria which runs until May 31st 2019. The other safeguard clause for the other 25 EU countries ran out in May 2014, funnily enough not long after the Swiss voted to curb immigration from the EU. Now I wonder why that was?

And the British need only look at Switzerland's current situation on this issue to see what will happen to them if they fall for this. EU refusing to negotiate on free movement so the UK will be back at square one with uncontrolled immigration or break all the EU agreements made in those 7 years. That will simply be a waste of 7 years' negotiating time, when they should put the effort into a permanent deal without such dubious carrots being dangled.
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  #68  
Old 25.07.2016, 09:28
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

As I understand it, there is a time limit for how long the safeguard clause can be applied, hence the expiry of the clause for a bunch of countries for CH in may 2014.

UK did not exercise the option to use the safeguard clause when Poland and several other countries joined. It was the only country not to do so at the time, and got a lot more of EU immigrants as a result, compared to the other countries. Again the pattern of blaming the EU for choices the national government made. If it joins the EEA now, then it could apply these clauses again.

If the UK must leave the common market eventually, then it needs time to prepare. Negotiate trade agreements, separate UK and EU law, etc. Getting this deal gives seven plus two years after art 50 is invoked to be able to do that. The chance of an economic shock is much reduced and may even be eliminated with good management.

Again this will depend on what Teresa May decides must happen nine years down the road. That leaves atleast two general elections in the interim.

In any event, there is a lot of resistance within the Tories for even an eea deal now. And lots of pissed off EU countries.
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  #69  
Old 25.07.2016, 09:49
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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An emergency brake [...]
No surprise in the same being offered to the UK.
It will be domestically projected as the UK getting control over immigration.
Edit: A big IF whether the Eastern European countries will agree to it.

EE countries don't matter. Theresa May visited Paris and Berlin, not Warsaw, Prague or Bukarest.
With the subsidies the EU has a lot of leverage, and whoever was burning to emigrate for greener pastures has done so already, and since 2005 all the other western countries opened their job markets so it is no longer the only place to go to.
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  #70  
Old 25.07.2016, 10:21
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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What you say is a contradiction. The reason we can't get those specialists anymore is because the EU-members get all the permits.

It's not contradiction at all: The business people don't want limits to immigration but an as free market for labour as possible. The SVP wants to limit immigration as much as possible in the hope that Switzerland would magically turn into some Heidi paradise if we just get rid of all those weird looking folks.


Thanks to the bilaterals can EU citizens not be limited anymore. In order to appease the right wing (and in a failed attempt of trying to stop the mass immigration initiative) did the government put on harder limits on non-EUs. You blaming the EU for this is just idiotic.


I have several MNCs as customers right now and I know cases in both Basel and Zurich where jobs went overseas because the Swiss were not giving the work permits (or companies were already anticipating the extra effort and low chance so did not even try). Yes, you can argue that 30% of the Swiss voters get what they wanted... but this damages the Swiss economy in the long run - this is not a short term effect of a high Swiss franc, its systemic. Once companies moved jobs overseas will they not easily come back even if you change the policy.
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  #71  
Old 25.07.2016, 10:59
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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As I understand it, there is a time limit for how long the safeguard clause can be applied, hence the expiry of the clause for a bunch of countries for CH in may 2014.

UK did not exercise the option to use the safeguard clause when Poland and several other countries joined. It was the only country not to do so at the time, and got a lot more of EU immigrants as a result, compared to the other countries. Again the pattern of blaming the EU for choices the national government made. If it joins the EEA now, then it could apply these clauses again.

If the UK must leave the common market eventually, then it needs time to prepare. Negotiate trade agreements, separate UK and EU law, etc. Getting this deal gives seven plus two years after art 50 is invoked to be able to do that. The chance of an economic shock is much reduced and may even be eliminated with good management.

Again this will depend on what Teresa May decides must happen nine years down the road. That leaves atleast two general elections in the interim.

In any event, there is a lot of resistance within the Tories for even an eea deal now. And lots of pissed off EU countries.
You are correct. The UK didn't apply the safeguard and was open to immigration.

The UK government has always been pro-immigration/pro-business, but in retrospect, maybe they either didn't see the political impact, or thought that it could be managed.

Anyway, it was handy for them to easily blame the EU, but in reality, the UK accepted about the same number of non-EU immigrants.

I find the EU to be astoundingly dogmatic. They should have just given the UK the freedom to apply temporary limits on immigration and allowed this to be renewed every year as necessary and put the ball back in the UK court.

They were played for domestic political purposes.

Of course, there are many others who want Brexit for other reasons, but I doubt it would have happened without the popular issue of immigration being a major theme in the campaigning and the positioning of the 'take back control' message.
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  #72  
Old 25.07.2016, 13:53
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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"Could" does not mean "will".

Also, it would have to pass, which is doubtful.

In short, forget it.

Tom
As per the current facts there's no "could", we will. However, the RASA sponsors have made it clear that they will withdraw the Initiative if the Bundesrat comes forward with a acceptable alternative.
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  #73  
Old 25.07.2016, 16:43
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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I'm genuinely curious about your views on integration and immigration. On the one hand, you describe Switzerland as a "a place full of arrogant Europeans who don't respect the country that is hosting them". Given your views on EU migrants living in Switzerland I found it a little amusing that you now lived in Berlin. I've been to Berlin and would imagine you find the situation there equally or more annoying. A curious choice, indeed. That's why I replied to your message. The most interesting part is that you now out yourself as one of those "arrogant foreigners" that work in the Berlin start-up scene for the money. Do you see the dichotomy here?

I have a few questions. Do you think Switzerland should adopt a different strategy from Germany regarding inwards EU migration and integration? If so, could you explain your reasoning? For example, is Berlin a special case with a society completely different from, say, Zurich? Alternatively, would you like Germany to also impose stricter conditions on inward EU migration - conditions that might have made your limited stay in Berlin difficult to arrange or even impossible? For example, I would imagine your start-up has English as the working language. Would you like laws that prevent that from happening? Should potential workers at your start-up have to pass an exam in German or even in the local dialect? What kind of legal benchmarks could exist to predict and enforce "integration" and how might they be applied? You are obviously highly self-aware so I'm also wondering about your emotional response to considering yourself as one of those "arrogant foreigners"? For example, I've worked for some employers in the past where I felt morally compromised but kept on taking the cash anyway. It didn't make me feel good at all. Does your stay in Berlin affect you in a similar way?

I'm genuinely curious about your outlook. There is a point to be made here but so far I have failed to fully understand it.

Cheers,

Terry
Germany had it coming, when it made the ECB follow a monetary policy 100% aligned to its own needs and interests. The result was that everybody in Southern Europe got completely f***ed. All the jobs moved from Southern Europe to Germany, then they realized they did not have enough qualified Germans to do these jobs, and then they asked us to move here and take these jobs.
Since it all started from German arrogance, I really don't feel sorry to see all these foreigners here refusing to learn German and integrate. It's not Southern Europeans exclusively, but they do form the largest group in my experience. I also know a few Scandinavians and Eastern Europeans who refuse to learn German and insist to get by speaking exclusively English.

On the other hand I really love the Swiss way of life, and I would like the Swiss to preserve it, even if it means that the country will lose many jobs that will be moved to Germany.

And BTW, I was exaggerating a bit when I described myself as an arrogant foreigner. I am actually learning German, even at a slow pace, and I don't miss any opportunity to practice (e.g. by being the organizer of the weekly German lunch at the start-up in which I work now.
From August 1 I will be moving to Hamburg for a new job at an ex start-up (a successful one ) and they offer free German classes at the office, which I am planning to attend.
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  #74  
Old 25.07.2016, 16:47
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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Through EFTA, a post-Brexit deal or through continuing EU membership?

I think they are missing the point of Brexit. Its not just about immigration, its about EU law supremacy.

Why do they leak this when they are supposedly not negotiating before Article 50?
You can't claim to know why each one of Brexit voters voted for Brexit.
Also, the EU is only offering one more alternative to Britain. Britain can decide which of the options to take. I don't see why this is a bad thing.
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  #75  
Old 25.07.2016, 16:51
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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You can't claim to know why each one of Brexit voters voted for Brexit.
Also, the EU is only offering one more alternative to Britain. Britain can decide which of the options to take. I don't see why this is a bad thing.
Of course we know why, and that is to leave the EU.
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  #76  
Old 25.07.2016, 16:56
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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Of course we know why, and that is to leave the EU.
Leaving the EU and joining the EEA is still leaving the EU.
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  #77  
Old 25.07.2016, 17:52
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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Leaving the EU and joining the EEA is still leaving the EU.
I couldn't figure out if this 7 year idea was in lieu of Brexit, or for a post Brexit deal. In either case, I think the EU will further soften on FMOP. Ultimately, Brexit is about taking back control of the UK, and especially its courts.
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  #78  
Old 25.07.2016, 19:40
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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I find the EU to be astoundingly dogmatic. They should have just given the UK the freedom to apply temporary limits on immigration and allowed this to be renewed every year as necessary and put the ball back in the UK court.
The UK has consistently failed to apply the measures already in place to handle situations where an EU national would be come a burden on the state and furthermore have failed to provide a meaningful explanation as to why they are unwilling to do so. Let them start by applying the current rules and see how it goes.
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Old 25.07.2016, 19:43
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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Leaving the EU and joining the EEA is still leaving the EU.
I guess so is leaving and re-joining the EU
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Old 26.07.2016, 01:21
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Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

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Germany had it coming, when it made the ECB follow a monetary policy 100% aligned to its own needs and interests. The result was that everybody in Southern Europe got completely f***ed. All the jobs moved from Southern Europe to Germany, then they realized they did not have enough qualified Germans to do these jobs, and then they asked us to move here and take these jobs.
Since it all started from German arrogance, I really don't feel sorry to see all these foreigners here refusing to learn German and integrate. It's not Southern Europeans exclusively, but they do form the largest group in my experience. I also know a few Scandinavians and Eastern Europeans who refuse to learn German and insist to get by speaking exclusively English.

On the other hand I really love the Swiss way of life, and I would like the Swiss to preserve it, even if it means that the country will lose many jobs that will be moved to Germany.

And BTW, I was exaggerating a bit when I described myself as an arrogant foreigner. I am actually learning German, even at a slow pace, and I don't miss any opportunity to practice (e.g. by being the organizer of the weekly German lunch at the start-up in which I work now.
From August 1 I will be moving to Hamburg for a new job at an ex start-up (a successful one ) and they offer free German classes at the office, which I am planning to attend.
Many thanks for your reply.

Personally, I'd rather a buoyant economy here in Zurich than any preservation of the "Swiss way of life". Buoyant economies typically have open borders and are host to diverse nationalities, some of whom are just there for the cash. To be perfectly honest, if Zurich regressed to the "Swiss way of life" I'd run to the hills. I can't think of anything worse. Hmm, running to the hills would be 100% the wrong direction because that is where the Swiss way of life is strongest. Anyway, you know what I mean.
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