Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics
View Poll Results: What should the Swiss government do in your opinion?
They should go ahead with introducing permit applications and quotas for EEA citizens 22 36.67%
They should introduce very high quotas for EEA nationals that in practice won't have any impact 8 13.33%
They should call for a new referendum on the EU-Swiss relationsip as a whole 16 26.67%
They should ignore 2014's referendum and not do anything 6 10.00%
I don't care, I got my C-permit or citizenship 8 13.33%
Voters: 60. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 21.07.2016, 17:30
lewton's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Berlin, Deutschland
Posts: 608
Groaned at 16 Times in 14 Posts
Thanked 507 Times in 292 Posts
lewton has earned some respectlewton has earned some respect
Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

The time is approaching when the Swiss government will have to respect the vote of the Swiss people in the 2014 referendum.

Given the Swiss government was and is against what the Swiss people voted for, and given the risk of losing access to the Single Market, what do you think the Swiss government should do?

Some relevant stuff to read:
EU tells Swiss no single market access if no free movement of citizens
Swiss Get EU Immigration Vote Do-Over Some Britons Hope for
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank lewton for this useful post:
  #2  
Old 21.07.2016, 19:48
Troublawesome's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Zug
Posts: 721
Groaned at 124 Times in 75 Posts
Thanked 583 Times in 271 Posts
Troublawesome is considered unworthyTroublawesome is considered unworthyTroublawesome is considered unworthyTroublawesome is considered unworthy
Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

From what I read that referendum was so marginal it was a joke sth like 50.3% and participation was low because people didn't believe it would pass.

The decision itself is void, Switzerland cannot introduce quotas and stay in the EU so the referendum makes no sense.

My proposal is to make a referendum about whether Switzerland should keep the EU treaties and push for maximum participation. That is the right question.

If they push for quotas and get kicked out it will be unfair for all those who want to be in and were never asked. Also for those who wanted quotas but stay in EU.

They should finally raise the referendum limit to 500,000. It was ok to be 100k for the last century but as the population has grown so much they're calling referenda asked by a very small percentage of the population and will end up discrediting the whole thing.
Reply With Quote
The following 7 users would like to thank Troublawesome for this useful post:
This user groans at Troublawesome for this post:
  #3  
Old 21.07.2016, 19:49
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 3,022
Groaned at 99 Times in 79 Posts
Thanked 3,746 Times in 1,936 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

Rumor has it that Swiss government is in most intense negotiations with Nicola Sturgeon, Theresa May, and the rest of Scotish and UK governments.

As you may already know, Scotland has gotten between hammer and anvil when the UK accepted Brexit, because the Scots want to stay in the EU. Knowing how hard-headed they can be, May is quite concerned and looking for an amicable solution, a way out if you will.

Switzerland on the other hand is completely surrounded by EU countries but doesn't want to join the club, a really awkward position for both which got even worsened not too long ago when Swiss government had to ask the EU to return their application to join them.

The obvious and completely logic solution to all those issues is that Switzerland should simply swap position with Scotland, they're a perfect match. EU would finally get rid of that alien spot in their midst, Scotland could stay in the EU, Switzerland would finally get rid of the permanent pressure to join, and England would get a much more powerful ally than Scotland could ever be.

What's more, because Switzerland already has 25% foreigners, the few the English want to get rid of could certainly get exported to us, repaint them if necessary to not induce more commotion than absolutely necessary, perhaps send some expats back in return.

So here you go:
Vote for the swap in the upcoming vote and all problems will be solved. Forever. Extragrosses Pfadfinderehrenwort.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Urs Max for this useful post:
  #4  
Old 21.07.2016, 19:54
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 18,084
Groaned at 924 Times in 720 Posts
Thanked 19,616 Times in 9,438 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

Quote:
View Post
The decision itself is void, Switzerland cannot introduce quotas and stay in the EU so the referendum makes no sense.
Clue, get one.

Switzerland is NOT in the EU.

Tom
Reply With Quote
The following 9 users would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
This user groans at st2lemans for this post:
  #5  
Old 21.07.2016, 20:02
Troublawesome's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Zug
Posts: 721
Groaned at 124 Times in 75 Posts
Thanked 583 Times in 271 Posts
Troublawesome is considered unworthyTroublawesome is considered unworthyTroublawesome is considered unworthyTroublawesome is considered unworthy
Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

Tom you're the definition of the term 'old-fart', or more accurately a NIMBY. The guy who has it all nice and comfy and wants no one else to come here in his village and take it away.

Wow you corrected me that Switzerland is not in the EU, who would have known...because you didn't understand that I meant all the bilaterals and adoption of EU legislation right?

Nothing useful, nothing informative just a good old typical troll reply from you as always. Added to my ignore list along with Phos, you deserve to be next to each other.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Troublawesome for this useful post:
This user groans at Troublawesome for this post:
  #6  
Old 21.07.2016, 20:12
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 18,084
Groaned at 924 Times in 720 Posts
Thanked 19,616 Times in 9,438 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

Quote:
View Post
Tom you're the definition of the term 'old-fart', or more accurately a NIMBY. The guy who has it all nice and comfy and wants no one else to come here in his village and take it away.
Who, in their right mind, would?

Fact is, I've been anti EU since Maastricht, and one reason I became Swiss was to do my part to keep CH OUT!

Quote:
View Post
Wow you corrected me that Switzerland is not in the EU, who would have known...because you didn't understand that I meant all the bilaterals and adoption of EU legislation right?
That's NOT what you said, so that's NOT what one would understand.

Anyway, I'd be more than happy to kiss the bilaterals goodbye.

Quote:
View Post
Nothing useful, nothing informative just a good old typical troll reply from you as always. Added to my ignore list along with Phos, you deserve to be next to each other.
Thanks!

Tom
Reply With Quote
The following 7 users would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #7  
Old 21.07.2016, 20:20
lewton's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Berlin, Deutschland
Posts: 608
Groaned at 16 Times in 14 Posts
Thanked 507 Times in 292 Posts
lewton has earned some respectlewton has earned some respect
Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

I agree that if the EU makes it clear that it does not wish to negotiate, the Swiss government should put the full question to a vote.
This is not undemocratic. The Swiss people can vote again if they want to stop free movement for EEA nationals, knowing the full consequences.
After all, I remember reading somewhere that what distinguishes the Swiss referendum rules from what happens in other parts of the world (e.g. California) is the fact that the people cannot vote whatever they want but it has to have been fully thought (e.g. while in California they can vote to cut taxes by 50%, in Switzerland they would have to add in the vote what expenses the government would have to cut from the budget).
__________________
Moving in and out of Switzerland (because it's fun).
Currently away. Miss the Alps.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 21.07.2016, 20:27
lewton's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Berlin, Deutschland
Posts: 608
Groaned at 16 Times in 14 Posts
Thanked 507 Times in 292 Posts
lewton has earned some respectlewton has earned some respect
Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

Quote:
View Post
Anyway, I'd be more than happy to kiss the bilaterals goodbye.
Me too.
I think that the Swiss-EU relationship is too complicated they way it is now.

Also, I would love to move back to Switzerland one day, and I would rather have to go through an emigration process but at least, when I am there find the Switzerland I love, instead of a place full of arrogant Europeans who don't respect the country that is hosting them (e.g. expecting to speak English at all times instead of making an effort to integrate).
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank lewton for this useful post:
  #9  
Old 21.07.2016, 21:18
TerryEntoure's Avatar
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1
Groaned at 4 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 14 Times in 5 Posts
TerryEntoure is considered knowledgeableTerryEntoure is considered knowledgeableTerryEntoure is considered knowledgeable
Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

Quote:
View Post
Me too.
I think that the Swiss-EU relationship is too complicated they way it is now.

Also, I would love to move back to Switzerland one day, and I would rather have to go through an emigration process but at least, when I am there find the Switzerland I love, instead of a place full of arrogant Europeans who don't respect the country that is hosting them (e.g. expecting to speak English at all times instead of making an effort to integrate).
Berlin, there, a city completely free from arrogant Europeans. You know, the type who swan around speaking English and not integrating. Yeah, those ones. We've all seen them at their social media start-ups sipping Frappalattecinos in an ironic jam jar. Yeah, they hang around speaking English with no regard for people that don't understand it. We all know the type. You see them down the organic food market with their little bags. Some of them aren't even from here. But we've all seen them. Berlin has none of them at all.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank TerryEntoure for this useful post:
  #10  
Old 21.07.2016, 21:28
Phos's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ZRH
Posts: 7,177
Groaned at 462 Times in 350 Posts
Thanked 9,364 Times in 4,926 Posts
Phos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

Quote:
View Post
I agree that if the EU makes it clear that it does not wish to negotiate,
EU is wishy-washy and moody. FMOP is being challenged on multiple fronts. If they don't take heed, they'll be solely responsible for their own cracking.



Quote:
View Post
Berlin, there, a city completely free from arrogant Europeans.
Ha, you mean those people who think the rest of Europe should follow according to they way they feel at the moment? I think its about time they realize there is more to Europe than just Germans.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Phos for this useful post:
  #11  
Old 21.07.2016, 21:52
TerryEntoure's Avatar
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1
Groaned at 4 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 14 Times in 5 Posts
TerryEntoure is considered knowledgeableTerryEntoure is considered knowledgeableTerryEntoure is considered knowledgeable
Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

Quote:
View Post
Ha, you mean those people who think the rest of Europe should follow according to they way they feel at the moment? I think its about time they realize there is more to Europe than just Germans.
Umm, people speaking English in Berlin probably aren't German. You've seen that type too, haven't you. I know you've seen them. They take little bags down to the organic food market on the way home from their social media start-up. You know the type - always blabbering away in a foreign guttural as though they were speaking in tongues or had a serious brain injury. So, if a German saw one they would automatically know that there is more to Germany than just Germans. What they think of the rest of Europe is anyone's guess but you've certainly made a firm conclusion there.

Which Germans have you been talking to that think Europe is just Germans? They need to get out a bit. Maybe learn a bit of geography. Take a dictionary in a little bag down to the local food market or something like that. Can you help them? Maybe lay on a special evening class? They certainly need some kind of assistance. What a state of affairs. It's not the war, you know.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 21.07.2016, 22:01
Phos's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ZRH
Posts: 7,177
Groaned at 462 Times in 350 Posts
Thanked 9,364 Times in 4,926 Posts
Phos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

Quote:
View Post
Which Germans have you been talking to that think Europe is just Germans? They need to get out a bit. Maybe learn a bit of geography. Take a dictionary in a little bag down to the local food market or something like that. Can you help them? Maybe lay on a special evening class? They certainly need some kind of assistance. What a state of affairs. It's not the war, you know.
I was referring to German policy makers who would like to enforce their perspective on the rest of Europe. Someone needs to remind them that other parts of Europe don't really see their countries undergoing a population decline like they do. Okay, it may not be arrogance. May just be myopia.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 21.07.2016, 22:17
Castro's Avatar
la mod
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Basel-Land of Smiles
Posts: 4,769
Groaned at 91 Times in 73 Posts
Thanked 12,707 Times in 4,143 Posts
Castro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

I think the Swiss should introduce the concept of two third super majorities like the US and many other countries to stop marginal wins destroying the country.
Reply With Quote
The following 7 users would like to thank Castro for this useful post:
This user groans at Castro for this post:
  #14  
Old 21.07.2016, 22:33
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 19,028
Groaned at 333 Times in 258 Posts
Thanked 11,712 Times in 6,857 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

Quote:
View Post
Rumor has it that Swiss government is in most intense negotiations with Nicola Sturgeon, Theresa May, and the rest of Scotish and UK governments.

As you may already know, Scotland has gotten between hammer and anvil when the UK accepted Brexit, because the Scots want to stay in the EU. Knowing how hard-headed they can be, May is quite concerned and looking for an amicable solution, a way out if you will.

Switzerland on the other hand is completely surrounded by EU countries but doesn't want to join the club, a really awkward position for both which got even worsened not too long ago when Swiss government had to ask the EU to return their application to join them.

The obvious and completely logic solution to all those issues is that Switzerland should simply swap position with Scotland, they're a perfect match. EU would finally get rid of that alien spot in their midst, Scotland could stay in the EU, Switzerland would finally get rid of the permanent pressure to join, and England would get a much more powerful ally than Scotland could ever be.

What's more, because Switzerland already has 25% foreigners, the few the English want to get rid of could certainly get exported to us, repaint them if necessary to not induce more commotion than absolutely necessary, perhaps send some expats back in return.

So here you go:
Vote for the swap in the upcoming vote and all problems will be solved. Forever. Extragrosses Pfadfinderehrenwort.

England should ^re-join EFTA and Scotland ahould become the KINGDOM OF SCOTLAND and join the EU
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Wollishofener for this useful post:
  #15  
Old 21.07.2016, 22:34
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Misery-Courtion
Posts: 13,486
Groaned at 169 Times in 134 Posts
Thanked 9,622 Times in 5,497 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

Quote:
View Post
I agree that if the EU makes it clear that it does not wish to negotiate, the Swiss government should put the full question to a vote.
This is not undemocratic. The Swiss people can vote again if they want to stop free movement for EEA nationals, knowing the full consequences.
After all, I remember reading somewhere that what distinguishes the Swiss referendum rules from what happens in other parts of the world (e.g. California) is the fact that the people cannot vote whatever they want but it has to have been fully thought (e.g. while in California they can vote to cut taxes by 50%, in Switzerland they would have to add in the vote what expenses the government would have to cut from the budget).
The Swiss already know the full consequences. Am I the only one who realises that if the people of Switzerland really wanted to vote on this issue again there would have been popular initiatives for signing to try and get another referendum on the subject? Has this happened? No. Not once in the 3 years since the vote was taken. Why? Because that's what the Swiss people want. The Swiss people knew, the Swiss people voted, now the government has to implement their decision. End of story.
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank Medea Fleecestealer for this useful post:
  #16  
Old 21.07.2016, 22:38
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 19,028
Groaned at 333 Times in 258 Posts
Thanked 11,712 Times in 6,857 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

Quote:
View Post
The Swiss already know the full consequences. Am I the only one who realises that if the people of Switzerland really wanted to vote on this issue again there would have been popular initiatives for signing to try and get another referendum on the subject? Has this happened? No. Not once in the 3 years since the vote was taken. Why? Because that's what the Swiss people want. The Swiss people knew, the Swiss people voted, now the government has to implement their decision. End of story.

the Blocherites want an iniative about cacelling all bilaterals
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 21.07.2016, 22:40
Phos's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ZRH
Posts: 7,177
Groaned at 462 Times in 350 Posts
Thanked 9,364 Times in 4,926 Posts
Phos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

I find it ridiculous to lay blame on Switzerland for the EU's intransigence. Switzerland is fine as it is without the EU's coercion. It shows total disrespect for the nations, histories, cultures and people of Europe. That is why I was elated by Brexit, and I am hoping other countries quickly follow suit in reclaiming its sovereignty. I mean, the EU is not nearly close to being capable of developing a decent country half like Switzerland. Look at its member states, mostly failed and soon to fail states. I'd like to get out before Switzerland becomes one of them, thank you.
__________________
exceptio probat regulam
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Phos for this useful post:
  #18  
Old 21.07.2016, 22:42
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 19,028
Groaned at 333 Times in 258 Posts
Thanked 11,712 Times in 6,857 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

Quote:
View Post
I find it ridiculous to lay blame on Switzerland for the EU's intransigence. Switzerland is fine as it is without the EU's coercion. It shows total disrespect for the nations, histories, cultures and people of Europe. That is why I was elated by Brexit, and I am hoping other countries quickly follow suit in reclaiming its sovereignty. I mean, the EU is not nearly close to being capable of developing a decent country half like Switzerland. Look at its member states, mostly failed and soon to fail states. I'd like to get out before Switzerland becomes one of them, thank you.

to come is the KSexitUK
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 21.07.2016, 23:42
roegner's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Zurich
Posts: 3,036
Groaned at 87 Times in 65 Posts
Thanked 3,060 Times in 1,567 Posts
roegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

Quote:
View Post
Berlin, there, a city completely free from arrogant Europeans. You know, the type who swan around speaking English and not integrating. Yeah, those ones. We've all seen them at their social media start-ups sipping Frappalattecinos in an ironic jam jar. Yeah, they hang around speaking English with no regard for people that don't understand it. We all know the type. You see them down the organic food market with their little bags. Some of them aren't even from here. But we've all seen them. Berlin has none of them at all.
Just asking, whereabouts in Berlin did you live? Lovely city but this?
Im actually more irritated by those German helicopter parents with their huge bikes that have no clue how to drive one going from one organic shop to another whilst complaining how the teachers do not understand their princes and princesses.

Dont get me wrong, Berlin is a great city but strange or arrogant people are everywhere.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank roegner for this useful post:
  #20  
Old 21.07.2016, 23:48
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Zurich
Posts: 244
Groaned at 64 Times in 28 Posts
Thanked 121 Times in 68 Posts
MarkH is considered unworthyMarkH is considered unworthyMarkH is considered unworthyMarkH is considered unworthy
Re: Freedom of Movement for EU nationals: should the Swiss bend the knee?

This whole 'Freedom of Movement for EU nationals' issue all seems rather defunct at present,as Switzerland is being overrun by Taliban/migrants/refugees.
This problem is far worse and net migration cannot reduce under these circumstances.They need to shift focus to this worsening issue which has surfaced since the referendum.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank MarkH for this useful post:
The following 6 users groan at MarkH for this post:
Reply

Tags
bilateral agreements, european union, referendum




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How should the EU handle the Migrant Crisis from now? Island Monkey International affairs/politics 2022 07.01.2016 17:46
New UK (visa free) rules for non EU spouses of EU nationals in EEA valid for CH? sholay Permits/visas/government 3 19.05.2015 12:05
Freedom of movement for workers in the European Union and Switzerland mountains Permits/visas/government 28 19.11.2013 00:39
Permits for Spouses of Swiss nationals and non- nationals Wabma Permits/visas/government 9 20.05.2013 10:26
Should Switzerland stay out of the EU? the_old_vase Swiss politics/news 10 18.02.2007 22:08


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 14:34.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0