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  #61  
Old 25.07.2016, 12:20
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Re: One Dead After Explosion At German Restaurant

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I really don't believe that kind of fascism could arise were it not for the level of corruption and dysfunction created by the status quo. If you take a simple statement of fact, and then accuse the person of fascism, it prevents you from dealing with what was pointed out.

I don't think the dichotomy here is between the current state and fascism. The dichotomy here is between the current state and a sober and honest approach to solving real problems. If the status quo fails to deal with issues soberly and honestly, then it gives ground and reason for the kind of fascism you are implying.


I think the key level is that to most sane people the level of "corruption and dysfunction" in Germany is actually quite low.
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Old 25.07.2016, 12:21
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Re: One Dead After Explosion At German Restaurant

I believe more could be done to stop these attacks by properly charging/imprisoning people who have previously been arrested for violent behaviour and by giving those who need it proper mental help, than by stopping refugee admittance.

It seems most of these recent deaths have been caused by people who have already been through legal or mental health issues.

If one releases known violent and/or mentally unstable people unwatched back into society then it creates instability. Same for failed asylum seekers. Send them back (or if you're not going to, admit that there's no such thing as a failed one and deal with it publicly).

Just randomly typing "mentally axe uk death" into google brings up more than I was expecting.

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  #63  
Old 25.07.2016, 12:26
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Re: One Dead After Explosion At German Restaurant

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I think the key level is that to most sane people the level of "corruption and dysfunction" in Germany is actually quite low.
To my mind the next test will be if Germany decides to deploy the military in some role. It won't be a "Just watch me" moment (google that if you aren't Canadian).
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Old 25.07.2016, 12:27
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Re: One Dead After Explosion At German Restaurant

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Human right organizations have had enough too and are horrified by the inhumane way immigrants/refugees are dumped in Greece and the dodgy deal with Turkey.
I'm still livid about the Turkish deal, and it isn't working.

I was talking to my OH's nephew 2 weeks ago about this. He's in the Greek Navy and says the deaths if migrants aren't making the headlines as they used to. He told us that a more recent development is migrants being taken to deserted islands where there is no fresh water supply. The Greek Navy is doing sweeps of these islands to pick up the migrants a few times a week!
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Old 25.07.2016, 12:30
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Re: One Dead After Explosion At German Restaurant

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I think the key level is that to most sane people the level of "corruption and dysfunction" in Germany is actually quite low.
Or tolerable at the moment. Germans have not been know to speak their minds, but when something breaks through a topic, they then seem to talk about openly as they then feel it is safe to do so.

There has been a substantial disruption of the Zeitgeist since Merkel's blunder. They may be able to patch this up if they deal with it correctly. But if these things continue to happen as they do, and the government-media continues to lose credibility, you may see a more abrupt and disruptive backlash.

If not, I think German society will continue on a backward slide anyway.


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To my mind the next test will be if Germany decides to deploy the military in some role. It won't be a "Just watch me" moment (google that if you aren't Canadian).
They are considering deploying the military within the country. I posted a DeutscheWelle link earlier.
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Old 25.07.2016, 12:30
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Re: One Dead After Explosion At German Restaurant

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I'm still livid about the Turkish deal, and it isn't working.

I was talking to my OH's nephew 2 weeks ago about this. He's in the Greek Navy and says the deaths if migrants aren't making the headlines as they used to. He told us that a more recent development is migrants being taken to deserted islands where there is no fresh water supply. The Greek Navy is doing sweeps of these islands to pick up the migrants a few times a week!
Good example of poor OPSEC....
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  #67  
Old 25.07.2016, 12:32
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Re: One Dead After Explosion At German Restaurant

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I'm not ranting. I'm trying to assess and understand. There's a difference.

What is your solution then? The surveillance thing doesn't work. The let's-all-be-happy-and-love-each-other approach doesn't seem to work either. So what is there left to do? I really don't know.

Of course I have no solution myself. And I think it's too late now. The world f* up royally when the war in Syria started and should have gone about it in an entirely different way. Of course that was post-economic crisis and we were all preoccupied with our own issues. Once the magnitude of the issues in Middle East became really real, it was too late. All that is left to do now is sit it out, wait, see and hope for the best. At the same time, is that really an option, a solution? Or just defeat?

I'm also highly concerned about Turkey, btw, but anyway...
Keep enforcing the rule of law.
Enforce the values European society is based on.

When the refugee influx started Germans supported it because they trusted
Merkel. She overdid it, but Germans were still going along, and then Cologne happened.

Looking at the attackers in Cologne, most of them were failed asylum seekers, who had not been sent back to North Africa.
The rule of law had been ignored by the German state.

Merkel will be held accountable for that in the next elections.
Different political parties will give their vision of what changes in the law should occur to deal with the situation, and there will be a vote.

Since then there have been steps towards returning the failed asylum seekers to North Africa.
And the law must be enforced for the current group of refugees as well. As for Syria, the law requires that the war there ends before someone can be sent back.

After every attack, there were numerous posts on every thread blaming Muslims as a whole, or all people from the middle east being the same, and calling for mass deportations of all Muslims. Thats just bigotry and extremism in another form.
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Old 25.07.2016, 12:38
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Re: One Dead After Explosion At German Restaurant

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To my mind the next test will be if Germany decides to deploy the military in some role. It won't be a "Just watch me" moment (google that if you aren't Canadian).
Deploy how?

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but Germans were still going along, and then Cologne happened.
I disagree. There was an enormous level of concern and apprehension even long before Cologne. And not just by the far right.

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After every attack, there were numerous posts on every thread blaming Muslims as a whole, or all people from the middle east being the same, and calling for mass deportations of all Muslims. Thats just bigotry and extremism in another form.
I don't think that the majority will say "all Muslims should be deported". Yes there are a few here and there, but certainly not most.

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I believe more could be done to stop these attacks by properly charging/imprisoning people who have previously been arrested for violent behaviour and by giving those who need it proper mental help, than by stopping refugee admittance.
Possibly, but then most of Western Europe isn't exactly known for harsh punishment for criminal offences...
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  #69  
Old 25.07.2016, 12:39
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Re: One Dead After Explosion At German Restaurant

As far as I know, and correct me if I'm wrong, German intel. is really strong and (imperially) active. I tend to think that sometimes they let things happen just to decipher some bigger networks. Maybe..
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Old 25.07.2016, 12:40
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Re: One Dead After Explosion At German Restaurant

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So it's the EUs fault? Why? Merkel's fault? For letting in a Million refugees out of which 2 so far did something terrible? And all those well integrated foreigners fearing for their good reputation? The Munich guy was one of them - and tried to target and kill other Muslims in his amok case.
I think you are right that these cases are minority and the effects are amplified through the media hysteria.

Although on a longer term scale, I do wonder, whether we as people are able to really live together.

There are no shortages of examples where people who have lived peacefully together turn on each other when times get tougher. The only way would be to build a shared identity - which may be tough to do when there are obvious physical differences (skin colour) as well as cultural and religious differences. There was an experiement once where people effectively discriminated on a tiny physical difference: eye colour.

As economic times get tougher, I expect such troubles to increase. In a sense, these are just the aftershocks of the dotcom crash.
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Old 25.07.2016, 12:41
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Re: One Dead After Explosion At German Restaurant

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I believe more could be done to stop these attacks by properly charging/imprisoning people who have previously been arrested for violent behaviour and by giving those who need it proper mental help, than by stopping refugee admittance.
Didn't Switzerland just vote on expelling foreign criminals?
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  #72  
Old 25.07.2016, 12:48
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Re: One Dead After Explosion At German Restaurant

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Well Phos, Loz and Parnel, amogles and even Samaire, what are your suggestions to what happens now? you keep ranting and ranting and ranting on about how all of this is the fault of all Muslims and liberals and Merkels open door policy, yet would you happily choose to go down the road of fascism? where people are singled out because of their beliefs or race and what restrictions they may bring to your own freedoms.
I believe the first step towards solving a problem is to agree there is a problem in the first place. You only need to look at the EF, and indeed society in general, to see we're a long way from that still and that people are pulling all sorts of apologisms to avoid admitting there is a problem.

As for fascist tendencies, I see the real dangerous fascist tendecies in those who try to suppress any narraitive outside of the official government narrative.
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  #73  
Old 25.07.2016, 12:54
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Re: One Dead After Explosion At German Restaurant

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Yes, it used to be much worse, but it was different terrorism. Terrorism is by no means new, but it's a different kind these days. Terrorism used to be political and was usually confined to attacks within one's own country (think RAF, ETA). These days it not only transcends borders, it is also religiously motivated, whether people like it or not.

I know this is a touchy subject and you're not allowed to say anything these days without being called a racist or whatever. But after Cologne and now this, I'm inclined to say there is a bigger issue and I'm also inclined to say it's not really a surprise. And parnell does have a point. Bad integration, frustration, lack of prospects, despite constant claims to the opposite, retraction into what's familiar etc.pp. It's not uncommon. It's even pretty human. Of course few of us would actually blow themselves up or go around slaughtering people, so there must be some other element.
"it's a different kind these days."
What the victims of terrorism have different kinds of deaths? Dead is dead.

" Terrorism used to be political and was usually confined to attacks within one's own country " LOL, I worked in London when the IRA were active, bombs could be on any corner!
The 1983 Harrods bomb killed three police officers and three civilians, injured 90 people.
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  #74  
Old 25.07.2016, 13:01
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Re: One Dead After Explosion At German Restaurant

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What annoys me the most is that EF is full of people hoping for the next case being some brown Muslim extremist, so that the prejudice and prepared arguments fit. I am pretty happy that so far the German society behaved much better than this.
What a revealing statement.

In the meantime, out in the real world, the German press are trying to connect the Munich guy to Anders Brevik. Suddenly the public are being asked to forget the previous narrative, you remember, the NPD are out to smash the skulls of every brown skinned person, and now we're supposed to believe they're actually actively recruiting disenfranschised Muslims and training them to be suicide bombers for the Nazi cause.

You remember all those angry mobs protesting outside asylum centers. Really they were just trying to recruit the migrants. How silly of the police to have misinterpreted their intentions.

You couldn't make this cr@p up.

But a lot of people seem to believe it.
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Old 25.07.2016, 13:05
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Re: One Dead After Explosion At German Restaurant

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To my mind the next test will be if Germany decides to deploy the military in some role. It won't be a "Just watch me" moment (google that if you aren't Canadian).
The anti terror police units that responded in Munich ("GSG 9") is better equipped, trained and funded than any bit of the German military.


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  #76  
Old 25.07.2016, 13:10
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Re: One Dead After Explosion At German Restaurant

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Deploy how?
That would be her decision. It might be just to get boots on the streets to show presence and relieve the conventional security to investigate, it might be more active than that.

The problem is that the mere suggestion will likely lead to a derailment and/or she may feel that it will influence the outcome of the next election. i.e. her decision to react in a manner which might in fact be necessary will not necessarily be determined by whether it is or is not necessary.
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Old 25.07.2016, 13:12
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Re: One Dead After Explosion At German Restaurant

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I believe more could be done to stop these attacks by properly charging/imprisoning people who have previously been arrested for violent behaviour and by giving those who need it proper mental help, than by stopping refugee admittance.

It seems most of these recent deaths have been caused by people who have already been through legal or mental health issues.

If one releases known violent and/or mentally unstable people unwatched back into society then it creates instability. Same for failed asylum seekers. Send them back (or if you're not going to, admit that there's no such thing as a failed one and deal with it publicly).

Just randomly typing "mentally axe uk death" into google brings up more than I was expecting.
if you replace 'mentally ill' with something along the lines of 'islamic' you would have been called a racist and bigot.

using mdd/bipolar patients or schizophrenics as an emergency exit is a goddamn disgrace.

as if life was not already hard enough for these people. now you want to lock them up as well. in hopes of what. feel like you actively prevent terrorism and still somehow keep your karma topped up.

i doubt witchhunting mental patients will change anything when it comes to, e.g. sharia. or mass rape. or misogyny. or homophobia.
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Old 25.07.2016, 13:14
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Re: One Dead After Explosion At German Restaurant

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The shooting, yes. The machete thing, maybe. The suicide bombing? I doubt it. I can't remember there every being a "Western" or "non-Muslim" (sorry for choosing those words, I can't think of an alternative) suicide bomber, but if there are, I'm happy to stand corrected.

The Munich guy was born in the country, but as said above, that doesn't say much. A random example springs to mind - remember the 90s book "Not Without My Daughter"? 40 years in the UK/US and still... Yes these are exceptions and probably not the rule. But to deny there are such exceptions is just plain naive, I'm afraid. Of course the Munich guy might just have been a madman in general, no matter his background. But I can see how people including myself struggle to separate cultural or religious background from such awful acts these days, especially if there's three or four within a span of a few days with all perps having a similar background.
"I can't remember there every being a "Western" or "non-Muslim" (sorry for choosing those words, I can't think of an alternative) suicide bomber"

Remember the German Wings pilot who flew his plane into the ground?

Then there was Andrew Joseph Stack III who deliberately crashed his single-engine Piper Dakota light aircraft into Building I of the Echelon office complex in Austin, Texas, United States.

Suicide attacks by Muslims is a fairly recent development; only in the last 30 or so years. Many senior Muslim clerics have stated this is based on a false interpretation of the Koran.
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Old 25.07.2016, 13:22
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Re: One Dead After Explosion At German Restaurant

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Yes, it used to be much worse, but it was different terrorism. Terrorism is by no means new, but it's a different kind these days. Terrorism used to be political and was usually confined to attacks within one's own country (think RAF, ETA). These days it not only transcends borders, it is also religiously motivated, whether people like it or not.

I know this is a touchy subject and you're not allowed to say anything these days without being called a racist or whatever. But after Cologne and now this, I'm inclined to say there is a bigger issue and I'm also inclined to say it's not really a surprise. And parnell does have a point. Bad integration, frustration, lack of prospects, despite constant claims to the opposite, retraction into what's familiar etc.pp. It's not uncommon. It's even pretty human. Of course few of us would actually blow themselves up or go around slaughtering people, so there must be some other element.
"it is also religiously motivated" Not sure I agree!
These attackers are not trying to convert people to their own religion or persuade people to leave other religions.
Also their victims are not limited to people from other religions; in fact, the majority of their victims come from their own religion.

Take Al Queda as an example, their aim was clearly political and was to persuade Western nations to leave Middle East countries
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Old 25.07.2016, 13:23
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Re: One Dead After Explosion At German Restaurant

Just to bring some focus back into this thread. No, it's not nice that innocents are being killed by foreigners or not-so-foreigners. Now you can try and comfort yourself by telling yourself that you see some kind of a pattern between asylum seekers coming from the worn torn streets of Syria, or people escaping persecution in Iran or Turkey. If that's what it takes to make you feel less fear, then amen to you.

Let's not forget about the white Anglo Saxon pilot who extinguished 150 lives because his perception of reality was twisted. The 80 who were just killed in Kabul aren't nobodies either.

My point is this. Writing and thinking about fear isn't going to change anything. If anything you're doing yourselves a big disservice. There's good stuff going on in the world.

Make your day a happy one. Hug a friend, your kid, your partner and make this day right for you and those around you.
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