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  #81  
Old 25.07.2016, 13:25
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Re: One Dead After Explosion At German Restaurant

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now you want to lock them up as well. in hopes of what. feel like you actively prevent terrorism and still somehow keep your karma topped up.
It's a pity you can't read and invent your own narrative, but for the benefit of others who you may have confused, no one is suggesting locking them up, but giving them the treatment they need.

Generally, society has moved on from just locking up those with mental issues.
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  #82  
Old 25.07.2016, 13:27
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Re: One Dead After Explosion At German Restaurant

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What a revealing statement.

In the meantime, out in the real world, the German press are trying to connect the Munich guy to Anders Brevik. Suddenly the public are being asked to forget the previous narrative, you remember, the NPD are out to smash the skulls of every brown skinned person, and now we're supposed to believe they're actually actively recruiting disenfranschised Muslims and training them to be suicide bombers for the Nazi cause.

You remember all those angry mobs protesting outside asylum centers. Really they were just trying to recruit the migrants. How silly of the police to have misinterpreted their intentions.

You couldn't make this cr@p up.

But a lot of people seem to believe it.
What on earth are you on about? It seems you are the one that's quite obviously confused! I think you might want to take time and actually read other peoples comments clearly before replying.

and what does Treversus statement reveal?

and the Munich link to Anders Brevik was based on the fact it was the anniversary of that attack, somebody hypothesized it in the Media, in the end the kid in Munich just turned out to be a disenfranchised teen like the kids in Columbine.
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  #83  
Old 25.07.2016, 13:28
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Re: One Dead After Explosion At German Restaurant

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It's a pity you can't read and invent your own narrative, but for the benefit of others who you may have confused, no one is suggesting locking them up, but giving them the treatment they need.

Generally, society has moved on from just locking up those with mental issues.
treating them? easy to say. give them a magical pill and hey presto?

it does not work like that.
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  #84  
Old 25.07.2016, 13:30
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Re: One Dead After Explosion At German Restaurant

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It's a pity you can't read and invent your own narrative, but for the benefit of others who you may have confused, no one is suggesting locking them up, but giving them the treatment they need.

Generally, society has moved on from just locking up those with mental issues.
Not in the state of Texas.
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  #85  
Old 25.07.2016, 13:32
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Re: One Dead After Explosion At German Restaurant

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Suicide attacks by Muslims is a fairly recent development; only in the last 30 or so years. Many senior Muslim clerics have stated this is based on a false interpretation of the Koran.
If we just look at the psychological 'profile' of serial killers, mass murderers and suicide bombers, they are markedly different.

Serial killers are usually highly intelligent and will preserve their own life at all costs, so that they can kill again.

Mass murderers very often take their own lives or are killed.

Suicide bombers are a relatively new phenomena, but usually a protest act. I'm reminded of Buddhist monks who self-immolatiated.

The latter two groups have no concern about preserving their own life, are totally unpredictable, and to my mind, there's precious little we can do about them except restrict access to the methods they use.
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Old 25.07.2016, 13:45
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Re: One Dead After Explosion At German Restaurant

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treating them? easy to say. give them a magical pill and hey presto?

it does not work like that.
The trend is increasingly to rely on Psychopharmaka, combined with stationary or out-patient programs. If long term support is then reduced as a result of this efficacy then there will be problems.

(No, I do not advocate locking them up)
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  #87  
Old 25.07.2016, 14:30
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Re: One Dead After Explosion At German Restaurant

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"it is also religiously motivated" Not sure I agree!
These attackers are not trying to convert people to their own religion or persuade people to leave other religions.
Also their victims are not limited to people from other religions; in fact, the majority of their victims come from their own religion
I didn't say it was necessarily about converting others to their religion. I said it was religiously motivated. It is true that IS specifically often targets others from their own religion, but it's the "infidels" in their own religion, the moderate/progressive Muslims. As such it is very much about religion. And if it has nothing to do with trying to convert "infidels", how do you explain the several attacks in Western Europe in the past weeks? What are they about then? Just spreading a bit of fear? To what end?

There are a million studies into this matter and the evolution of terrorism in this respect. Most of the Middle East is not exactly secularized, so politics and religion are inextricably linked. Al Qaeda may have been partly motivated by politics, but the more recent attacks are not.


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Remember the German Wings pilot who flew his plane into the ground?

Then there was Andrew Joseph Stack III who deliberately crashed his single-engine Piper Dakota light aircraft into Building I of the Echelon office complex in Austin, Texas, United States.
Not the same as a suicide bombing for me as it's clearly suicides due to merely personal and mental health issues, but I get the point of course (and needless to say these incidents are just as awful). The one in Munich is a similar category in my view as I find nothing "extremist" there as of yet (let's wait and see though). However, two cases vs. how many bombings in the last year alone?
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  #88  
Old 25.07.2016, 14:35
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Re: One Dead After Explosion At German Restaurant

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You're forgetting the first Gulf War, 1990, no spike there and the Iraq Invasion in early 2003, no spike either.
Government structures were left intact in 1990 AFAIK, and in 2003 the US army prevented a power vacuum.
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  #89  
Old 25.07.2016, 14:37
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Re: One Dead After Explosion At German Restaurant

The bomber had received two deportation orders (to Bulgaria). Let's hope the German authorities learn something from this.
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  #90  
Old 25.07.2016, 14:42
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Re: One Dead After Explosion At German Restaurant

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government structures were left intact in 1990 afaik, and in 2003 the us army caused a power vacuum resulting in civil war.
ftfy
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  #91  
Old 25.07.2016, 14:52
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Re: One Dead After Explosion At German Restaurant

The way I remember is, that didn't happen until significant forces were withdrawn, 2007 or so. After that of course civil war ensued, there's no arguing that. But the spike in the chart occured in 2003/04.

Perhaps we're talking about different phases?
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  #92  
Old 25.07.2016, 15:05
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Re: One Dead After Explosion At German Restaurant

The Iraqi army was disbanded soon after the invasion, in the rush to de-Baathify the country, even though loads of them were in the party only for the reason that it was a prerequisite to holding government office in Saddam's Iraq.

Not enough security arrangements to take it's place.

Lots of suddenly powerless Sunnis with access to lots of military hardware. The insurgency started by late 2003.
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Old 25.07.2016, 15:07
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Re: One Dead After Explosion At German Restaurant

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Thank you for an accurate and fair account of events. Yet another case of a member being deliberately neutral r.e. a developing news story, and a mod adding their own slant. I fail to see how a straight cut and paste post from a news website, with just one line of comment from a member, can be edited 4 times.
And I fail to see how clarifying the fact that it was a suspected gas explosion is in any way "putting a slant" on it.

When you first posted it that was what the news report you linked said was suspected, and I even gladly added that word on your request at ~0200, purely for the added info that the title would give to a casual reader. Then first thing this morning, before anyone else had commented, I saw the updated news and removed those words.

So what, exactly, are you complaining about? What slant do you think I was trying to put on it?
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  #94  
Old 25.07.2016, 15:12
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Re: One Dead After Explosion At German Restaurant

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Didn't Switzerland just vote on expelling foreign criminals?
You probably mean the Durchsetzungsinitiative, so yes, kind of.
That was on toughened rules when to deport foreigners, but the proposition was simply moronic and completely inconsistent so it was denied. Instead some thought-thru amendments were introduced.

However, we as well as Germany have also given ourselves rules that define when a refused person (to call it that) may actually be deported, I'd be surprised if that didn't keep action from being taken. For instance the destination country needs to be safe.

And of course the destination country must be willing to accept its citizen. Again not something I'd bet on in the case of many northern African countries.

So what Kosti calls ignoring the law (by the Germans), breaking it, may in reality be the exact opposite.
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  #95  
Old 25.07.2016, 15:17
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Re: One Dead After Explosion At German Restaurant

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I didn't say it was necessarily about converting others to their religion. I said it was religiously motivated. It is true that IS specifically often targets others from their own religion, but it's the "infidels" in their own religion, the moderate/progressive Muslims. As such it is very much about religion. And if it has nothing to do with trying to convert "infidels", how do you explain the several attacks in Western Europe in the past weeks? What are they about then? Just spreading a bit of fear? To what end?

There are a million studies into this matter and the evolution of terrorism in this respect. Most of the Middle East is not exactly secularized, so politics and religion are inextricably linked. Al Qaeda may have been partly motivated by politics, but the more recent attacks are not.


Not the same as a suicide bombing for me as it's clearly suicides due to merely personal and mental health issues, but I get the point of course (and needless to say these incidents are just as awful). The one in Munich is a similar category in my view as I find nothing "extremist" there as of yet (let's wait and see though). However, two cases vs. how many bombings in the last year alone?
"I said it was religiously motivated." Then what was the "religious motive"?

Look at Nigeria! Boko is trying to impose sharia on the country, because that is what their religion tells them to do. There we have a clear religious motive.

If you want to say the attacks were by religious extremists then certainly true in some cases.

"how do you explain the several attacks in Western Europe in the past weeks? " Too soon to say; certainly the attackers did not document any demands.

If they were interested in targeting infidels then why did they choose false targets? Religious institutions and meetings would make more sense than clubs or restaurants or the Promenade in Nice.
One gets the sense that they are simply driven by envy of people who can afford the good things in life?

The recent W. Europe attacks do not fit with the usual patterns of religiously motivated terrorism.

Last edited by marton; 25.07.2016 at 15:45.
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Old 25.07.2016, 15:21
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Re: One Dead After Explosion At German Restaurant

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The Iraqi army was disbanded soon after the invasion, in the rush to de-Baathify the country, even though loads of them were in the party only for the reason that it was a prerequisite to holding government office in Saddam's Iraq.

Not enough security arrangements to take it's place.

Lots of suddenly powerless Sunnis with access to lots of military hardware. The insurgency started by late 2003.
"The Iraqi army was disbanded soon after the invasion" I always thought that was a very stupid move. They should have continued paying them and given them useful non-military work.
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Old 25.07.2016, 15:31
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Re: One Dead After Explosion At German Restaurant

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The Iraqi army was disbanded soon after the invasion, in the rush to de-Baathify the country, even though loads of them were in the party only for the reason that it was a prerequisite to holding government office in Saddam's Iraq.

Not enough security arrangements to take it's place.

Lots of suddenly powerless Sunnis with access to lots of military hardware. The insurgency started by late 2003.
Yes, but the presence of the US military kept a power vacuum from forming. That changed with the military's retreat, and since perhaps 2012/13 they had virtually free reign.

That may be reverting now, as evidenced by the territory gains by the coalition.
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Old 25.07.2016, 15:40
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Re: One Dead After Explosion At German Restaurant

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And I fail to see how clarifying the fact that it was a suspected gas explosion is in any way "putting a slant" on it.
Well, your denial clearly points to the fact that your share portfolio relies heavily on fossil based gas technologies or the production thereof. So by editing a post to remove any possible trace (or smell) of gas you are clearly acting in a self interested way to promote the fact that gas is a viable and modern energy source.

Allegedly.
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Old 25.07.2016, 15:53
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Re: One Dead After Explosion At German Restaurant

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I believe more could be done to stop these attacks by properly charging/imprisoning people who have previously been arrested for violent behaviour and by giving those who need it proper mental help, than by stopping refugee admittance.

It seems most of these recent deaths have been caused by people who have already been through legal or mental health issues.

If one releases known violent and/or mentally unstable people unwatched back into society then it creates instability. Same for failed asylum seekers. Send them back (or if you're not going to, admit that there's no such thing as a failed one and deal with it publicly).

Just randomly typing "mentally axe uk death" into google brings up more than I was expecting.
For how long would you have somebody imprisoned who was involved in a bloody brawl or two (say, a broken tooth or two, perhaps a broken finger)? As that's what violent may mean in the case ot the suicide bomber, no further details known as I'm aware.

At some point you need to release them, you simply have to take the risk and let them free. Even those you consider failed because many come from countries that are deemed unsafe thus unfit for the refused to be sent back to, at least for the time being.

And there is of course the money aspect, treatment (stationary or not, but also detainment as you seem to partially demand) is anything but cheap, assuming capacity is available in the first place. I have no doubt that, if costs rose due to expanded treatment, the exact same people arguing the refugees are a danger to public safety would also be those demanding that costs be reduced no matter what.
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Old 25.07.2016, 16:35
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Re: One Dead After Explosion At German Restaurant

Bavaria's top security official says video found on Ansbach bomber's phone pledging allegiance to IS leader.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36882831
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