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  #61  
Old 27.07.2016, 11:08
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Re: is racism / hate crime becoming more acceptable?

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I'd like to dare "Liberals", or whatever misnomer it is that hate her, to come up with a better and clearer definition of Racism than Ayn Rand:
I would say that this is a rather simple definition and totally misses the point..
The point is that "our" racists moaning over the immigrants coming into "our" territory are mirrored by "their" racists moaning over immigrants coming into "their" territory, or more simply put, all tribes are inherently racist, it is a normal part of human behavior.
One stranger with a strange color of skin and strange habits and strange customs coming into in a village with, say 400 inhabitants will be accepted, two of them, no problem, three, four, ten, twenty... Hmmm! At some point a tipping point is hit and the mood changes and even in the most enlightened society it will change as soon as "they" start popping out their strange kids.
We are fighting something that is hardwired into humans it would seem.
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  #62  
Old 27.07.2016, 16:35
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Re: is racism / hate crime becoming more acceptable?

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I'd like to dare "Liberals", or whatever misnomer it is that hate her, to come up with a better and clearer definition of Racism than Ayn Rand:
Why one would need to provide a better definition just in order to refute this one is anything but apparent.

Racism these days is no longer applied exclusively with race or other genetic traits in mind, it also encompasses categorizations such as nationality, belief, and probably some more. However much or little AR's definition may have been worth in the past, these days it is way too narrow to be valid.
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Old 27.07.2016, 16:54
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Re: is racism / hate crime becoming more acceptable?

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I'd like to dare "Liberals", or whatever misnomer it is that hate her, to come up with a better and clearer definition of Racism than Ayn Rand:
Aside from anything else, I'd swap "man" for "person" and I'd have already made the definition 100% more accurate.
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  #64  
Old 31.07.2016, 23:05
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Re: is racism / hate crime becoming more acceptable?

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Just in the past few months I've noticed its become almost acceptable to be openly racist / xenophobic, even more so since brexit, my facebook stream is filled by people posting and reposting some quite disturbing things, for people who (I thought) would never have normally been this way.

The tone on here has also noticeably deteriorated in the past 12 months, reading expats berated people for wanting to come here is frankly bizarre, not to mention hypocritical.

Have we learnt nothing from history?
You're the stereotype of someone always complaining about stereotypes.

Meanwhile in Africa:

http://www.citizen.co.za/1226263/all...eff-candidate/

Last edited by MarkH; 01.08.2016 at 01:25.
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  #65  
Old 01.08.2016, 00:16
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Re: is racism / hate crime becoming more acceptable?

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Thanks - I agree it also applies to Switzerland - but as the topic of this thread is about racism I think it equally belongs here :
  • "Refugees" (of different races) are moving to Switzerland & the wealthier parts of the EU to take advantage of generous welfare states
  • Since they are moving through multiple safe countries they are not refugees at all - they are welfare migrants
  • The fault lies with those people themselves who are fraudsters but also with the politicians who permit and often encourage wholesale fraud
  • The correct argument has nothing to do with race - that is intellectual laziness - it has to do with economics
  • Friedman was Jewish himself and the child of recent immigrants to the US - he has equally tough but fair things to say about immigrating communities i.e. the State should not intervene or support them
I'm a little uncertain of the point you are trying to make. There is a bold statement in there but I don't fully understand it yet. Could you please clarify what you mean by this?

The fault lies with those people themselves who are fraudsters but also with the politicians who permit and often encourage wholesale fraud

Do you mean that Syrian (for the sake of argument) asylum seekers in Switzerland (for the sake of argument) are committing welfare fraud because they could have more quickly claimed asylum in, say, Tripoli? Do you mean that the only reason for asylum seekers take refuge in Western Europe is the post-war European consensus on the welfare state? Or do you mean their entire case is fraudulent because they have no need of asylum and have opted to follow the course they have for personal financial gain? Or do you mean that they have taken to a fraudulent and criminal lifestyle after they reach Western Europe.

Do you mean that politicians and welfare groups who implement humanitarian policies are participating in a fraud whose basis is a slightly relaxed attitude to a debatable detail of international law? Or do you mean that such humanitarian groups are mere fronts for a fraud whose goal is personal financial gain? Or do you mean that the Macedonian (for the sake of argument) authorities who moved Syrian refugees to the next border as fast as they could are participating in a fraud by not upholding a debatable detail of international law? Or do you mean that the Swiss authorities turn a blind eye when they find out that refugees become engaged in fraudulent and criminal activity and are thereby passive participants in that activity. Or do you mean that the Swiss authorities prefer that asylum seekers become engaged in fraudulent activity and are therefore actively encouraging them in that fraudulent and criminal activity.

It would be awesome if you could find the time to elaborate on these two points because forums can descend rather quickly to miscommunication.

Cheers,

Terry
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  #66  
Old 01.08.2016, 10:06
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Re: is racism / hate crime becoming more acceptable?

http://www.iol.co.za/news/politics/b...whites-1971898


More news from Africa.You get a different perspective when you live
there as a minority group.
But yes.Racism is becoming more prevalent and it swings many different
ways.
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  #67  
Old 01.08.2016, 11:53
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Re: is racism / hate crime becoming more acceptable?

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You're the stereotype of someone always complaining about stereotypes.

Meanwhile in Africa:

http://www.citizen.co.za/1226263/all...eff-candidate/
And you're the kind of Saffa who believed Uhuru would definitely happen.

You cannot compare South African experiences of racism with racism in Western Europe. S.A. is recovering from apartheid, and that will take at least two generations. And before you jump to any conclusions about me, my OH was born in Hillbrow.
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  #68  
Old 01.08.2016, 12:11
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Re: is racism / hate crime becoming more acceptable?

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And you're the kind of Saffa who believed Uhuru would definitely happen.

You cannot compare South African experiences of racism with racism in Western Europe. S.A. is recovering from apartheid, and that will take at least two generations. And before you jump to any conclusions about me, my OH was born in Hillbrow.
Two generations seem overly optimistic, heck the Balkans are still sore over the battle for Kosovo in 1389.
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Old 01.08.2016, 12:12
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Re: is racism / hate crime becoming more acceptable?

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I'm a little uncertain of the point you are trying to make. There is a bold statement in there but I don't fully understand it yet. Could you please clarify what you mean by this?

The fault lies with those people themselves who are fraudsters but also with the politicians who permit and often encourage wholesale fraud

Do you mean that Syrian (for the sake of argument) asylum seekers in Switzerland (for the sake of argument) are committing welfare fraud because they could have more quickly claimed asylum in, say, Tripoli? Do you mean that the only reason for asylum seekers take refuge in Western Europe is the post-war European consensus on the welfare state? Or do you mean their entire case is fraudulent because they have no need of asylum and have opted to follow the course they have for personal financial gain? Or do you mean that they have taken to a fraudulent and criminal lifestyle after they reach Western Europe.

Do you mean that politicians and welfare groups who implement humanitarian policies are participating in a fraud whose basis is a slightly relaxed attitude to a debatable detail of international law? Or do you mean that such humanitarian groups are mere fronts for a fraud whose goal is personal financial gain? Or do you mean that the Macedonian (for the sake of argument) authorities who moved Syrian refugees to the next border as fast as they could are participating in a fraud by not upholding a debatable detail of international law? Or do you mean that the Swiss authorities turn a blind eye when they find out that refugees become engaged in fraudulent and criminal activity and are thereby passive participants in that activity. Or do you mean that the Swiss authorities prefer that asylum seekers become engaged in fraudulent activity and are therefore actively encouraging them in that fraudulent and criminal activity.

It would be awesome if you could find the time to elaborate on these two points because forums can descend rather quickly to miscommunication.

Cheers,

Terry
Hi Terry ,
you've written a bunch of specific questions and been respectful while doing so - here comes a bunch of specific answers :
The fault lies with those people themselves who are fraudsters but also with the politicians who permit and often encourage wholesale fraud

I tried to point out a sequential argument :
  1. "Refugees" (of different races) are moving to Switzerland & the wealthier parts of the EU to take advantage of generous welfare states
  2. Since they are moving through multiple safe countries they are not refugees at all - they are welfare migrants
  3. The fault lies with those people themselves who are fraudsters but also with the politicians who permit and often encourage wholesale fraud
So the first thing is "what is a refugee" ? Very simply a refugee is a person who has left their home country due to the imminent risk of death or bodily injury. The moment this risk subsides they can no longer fairly said to be fleeing such a situation. Therefore the moment "Syrian" refugees are in Jordan for example the question moves from being one about security to being one of economics.
An enormous number of people - most of them not Syrian have seized their chance and defrauded the EU - and worse politicians have willingly colluded with them by not insisting on adequate background checks and security on the borders of the EU.

So now onto your specific questions :

Do you mean that Syrian (for the sake of argument) asylum seekers in Switzerland (for the sake of argument) are committing welfare fraud because they could have more quickly claimed asylum in, say, Tripoli? No - they are not welfare fraudsters due to speed but a large number are based on (1) they are not Syrian and/or (2) Switzerland has no borders with Syria - they have passed through multiple safe countries - only in the first one of which they could rightly be said to be "asylum seekers" in the case of genuine war refugees.

Do you mean that the only reason for asylum seekers take refuge in Western Europe is the post-war European consensus on the welfare state? No - there are likely other reasons (Shia Muslims are unlikely to be comfortable in Saudi) but I greatly suspect that is the most powerful reason and the statistical evidence is overwhelmingly in support of that as evidenced by the flows to Sweden and Germany.

Or do you mean their entire case is fraudulent because they have no need of asylum and have opted to follow the course they have for personal financial gain?
See above.

Or do you mean that they have taken to a fraudulent and criminal lifestyle after they reach Western Europe.
No - I don't believe that to be the case in all and probably not even in a majority of cases but the question quickly moves to:
"What proportion of good productive migrants can support what proportion of unproductive migrants and how to promote the first class and disincentivise the second ?"

My contention is that you need a huge proportion of productive migrants to compensate for even a few bad apples - especially when you consider the cost of violent and sexual crime. At the very minimum the rate of net productivity must be at the level of the indigenous peoples - this explains why Indians and Chinese have done very well everywhere they went but the experience with North Africans in particular and Middle Easterners have been awful.

The following link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_...nt_criminality
provides a strong clue as to how a logical data driven immigration policy should be constructed - of course it only provides information on the bad apples - you also need information on the nationalities of productive workers as well to balance it out.

My fear is that because of the welfare state , the very laissez faire attitude towards lifestyle choice in the EU (as compared with the US for example) , the lack of adequate background checks and the very high amounts of inbreeeding amongst middle eastern cultures and north african cultures
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding#Prevalence)
that many migrants and their children will never be able to outcompete the native population - and will lazily resort to excuses of racism and crime as an inevitable consequence. The patterns of Paris and Marseilles will become the norm across Western Europe and then this will usher in extreme measures and Europe will truly become balkanized.


Sorry I didn't get to all your questions - I'll try to come back to the remainder later on.

Last edited by parnell; 01.08.2016 at 12:31. Reason: Cleaning up punctuation and adding emphasis
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  #70  
Old 01.08.2016, 12:23
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Re: is racism / hate crime becoming more acceptable?

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And you're the kind of Saffa who believed Uhuru would definitely happen.

You cannot compare South African experiences of racism with racism in Western Europe. S.A. is recovering from apartheid, and that will take at least two generations. And before you jump to any conclusions about me, my OH was born in Hillbrow.
Personally I prefer the nitpicking and extremely minor accusations of racism
in Western Europe to the hacking to death threats
eminating from Africa .
Maybe that's why you live here and not there?
Remember the whole British Colonialism issue,so
you as a British citizen are not excluded from these
threats.

Last edited by MarkH; 01.08.2016 at 12:41.
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  #71  
Old 01.08.2016, 12:27
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Re: is racism / hate crime becoming more acceptable?

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And you're the kind of Saffa who believed Uhuru would definitely happen.

You cannot compare South African experiences of racism with racism in Western Europe. S.A. is recovering from apartheid, and that will take at least two generations. And before you jump to any conclusions about me, my OH was born in Hillbrow.
If by "recovering" you mean descending into chaos then sure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_...#Violent_crime

Quote:
urvey for the period 1990–2000 compiled by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime ranked South Africa second for assault and murder (by all means) per capita and first for rapes per capita in a data set of 60 countries.[3] Total crime per capita was 10th out of the 60 countries in the dataset.[citation needed]
Many other countries have emerged from brutal colonisation regimes - I'm from one of them - without such explosions in crime. It's merely an excuse.
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Old 01.08.2016, 13:02
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Re: is racism / hate crime becoming more acceptable?

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Maybe that's why you live here and not there?
Remember the whole British Colonialism issue,so
you as a British citizen are not excluded from these
threats.
I've never even been to S.A. so you're barking up the wrong tree there.

OH left S.A. after living there for 42 yrs, because most of his immediate family had moved back to Greece after his father died, and he wanted to see more of the World. He still has many friends and cousins in Johannesburg, Pretoria and Cape Town though. Some have even lived in Europe for several years and recently returned to S.A.
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  #73  
Old 01.08.2016, 13:15
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Re: is racism / hate crime becoming more acceptable?

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I've never even been to S.A. so you're barking up the wrong tree there.

OH left S.A. after living there for 42 yrs, because most of his immediate family had moved back to Greece after his father died, and he wanted to see more of the World. He still has many friends and cousins in Johannesburg, Pretoria and Cape Town though. Some have even lived in Europe for several years and recently returned to S.A.
Glad you believe you are exempt as a British Citizen.
My son was actually 6 years old when SA became independent
21 years ago and he is not exempt.?What does a 6 year old understand about politics?
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  #74  
Old 01.08.2016, 13:32
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Re: is racism / hate crime becoming more acceptable?

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Glad you believe you are exempt as a British Citizen.
Never said any such thing, but don't let that get in the way of your preconceptions.

My point is, please don't bring your experience of racism to Europe with you. It's a completely different environment and you're carrying this with you.
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Old 01.08.2016, 14:08
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Re: is racism / hate crime becoming more acceptable?

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Never said any such thing, but don't let that get in the way of your preconceptions.

My point is, please don't bring your experience of racism to Europe with you. It's a completely different environment and you're carrying this with you.
I don't believe that the environment is different.
In Europe you have a majority of white people and in Africa you
have a majority of non white people.
So I am saying that the experience for the minority
groups in Europe is far better than the experience for the
minority groups in Africa.
My experience is invaluable during this period of mass
migration to Europe from Africa.
Things will change.You need to live in Africa for a while
for the penny to drop.
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  #76  
Old 01.08.2016, 14:18
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Re: is racism / hate crime becoming more acceptable?

Just read your posts back to my partner. He says you've spent far too much time on IOL and it's poisoned your soul.

In my personal experience, the only large scale immigration from Africa that I've seen is white Saffas to London
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Old 01.08.2016, 14:42
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Re: is racism / hate crime becoming more acceptable?

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Just read your posts back to my partner. He says you've spent far too much time on IOL and it's poisoned your soul.

In my personal experience, the only large scale immigration from Africa that I've seen is white Saffas to London
The Saffas in London are running away from something.
The same reason I came to Switzerland.
Trying to cleanse my soul.Sorry but cannot
continue this discussion with someone who
only has half a perception.
Say Howzit to your hubby from me.
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Old 01.08.2016, 14:47
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Say Howzit to your hubby from me.
I did, thanks, and he empathises with you. You will get there...
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  #79  
Old 01.08.2016, 14:51
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You're the stereotype of someone always complaining about stereotypes.

Meanwhile in Africa:

http://www.citizen.co.za/1226263/all...eff-candidate/
Must have been killing you not being able to post for a week, still posting up your bile I see
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Old 01.08.2016, 15:33
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Re: is racism / hate crime becoming more acceptable?

Racism unleashed: Incident by incident – the grim litany of post-Brexit hate crime
Heartbreaking Call From "Scared" German Woman

And describing her tormentors, Karen herself had noted, incredulously: “I live in a middle class area. The people doing it are middle class pensioners.” ... The Archbishop of Canterbury has railed against “an outwelling of poison and hatred that I cannot remember for many years.” And he should know. He delivered his House of Lords speech on July 5, eight days after a guard at his own cathedral told a brown skinned UK-resident: “Dover’s that way, love.”
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