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  #81  
Old 23.08.2016, 15:25
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Re: Switzerland is the third worst for overuse of resources

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...and they also contribute far more to humanity than the poor. So what exactly is your point?



The bleeding heart brigade probably wouldn't mind culling them a bit. That was the answer to the query from slammer, no?
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  #82  
Old 23.08.2016, 15:26
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Re: Switzerland is the third worst for overuse of resources

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Genesis 9.7 was always a bad idea in my opinion.
"And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth."
Ok lord we have ticked that box, now what?
Speaking of which, it may be nearly time to build an ark.
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  #83  
Old 23.08.2016, 15:33
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Re: Switzerland is the third worst for overuse of resources

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LiB, the countries which vastly consume more than they produce are not just the non-western countries. In fact, it includes nearly every one of the western countries.


Moreover, the only western countries that seem to produce more than they consume are Canada and the Nordics.


The Global footprint Network looks like the attached.

Every nation in pink or red is guilty of running an ecological deficit. They're the ones that need to sort themselves out and use less crap. The ones that have higher birth rates are not necessarily less able to support said birth rate.
Arrrrgh! That map is so misleading. "Use less crap" sure, so why produce it in the first place? Why not tell China to stop producing stuff, or India etc.
Nice in theory, but!
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  #84  
Old 23.08.2016, 15:35
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Re: Switzerland is the third worst for overuse of resources

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Speaking of which, it may be nearly time to build an ark.
Ark? It rained today, first time since April, I counted over 40 drops on Iron Pig´s windscreen.
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  #85  
Old 23.08.2016, 15:42
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Re: Switzerland is the third worst for overuse of resources

The perspective about the use of resources is somewhat primitive and counter development. I would even call it an inhumane perspective. Resources that are not used are worthless. They have to be processed for some use to be of any value. The problem here is not about lack of resources, but the capability to produce something out of it. If you kill off all the producers, you're not going to alleviate issues of scarcity, you'll just make it worse.
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  #86  
Old 23.08.2016, 15:52
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Re: Switzerland is the third worst for overuse of resources

Funny how the media like to bang on about global warming like it's the biggest threat we're facing at the moment, whilst completely ignoring over population which is far far worse.
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Old 23.08.2016, 16:03
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Re: Switzerland is the third worst for overuse of resources

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Funny how the media like to bang on about global warming like it's the biggest threat we're facing at the moment, whilst completely ignoring over population which is far far worse.
There is no problem with overpopulation. There is a problem with overconsumption. Nobody in any government or media feels like telling you "buy less crap" as this would be bad for business. As long as politicians are measured on the GDP per capita and media relies on ad revenues by people who try to sell you stuff is nothing going to change...
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  #88  
Old 23.08.2016, 16:03
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Re: Switzerland is the third worst for overuse of resources

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Arrrrgh! That map is so misleading. "Use less crap" sure, so why produce it in the first place? Why not tell China to stop producing stuff, or India etc.
Nice in theory, but!

Slammer, you missed the point entirely.


The point of the map is to show the deficit. There's two ways to cut any deficit - produce more or consume less. The map shows the difference between the two, in an answer to LiBs question about those who produce less, to consume less.


Production of crap is fine - its how the resources for the production of said crap are found that's the issue.
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  #89  
Old 23.08.2016, 16:05
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Re: Switzerland is the third worst for overuse of resources

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Funny how the media like to bang on about global warming like it's the biggest threat we're facing at the moment, whilst completely ignoring over population which is far far worse.

Because 'overpopulation' is a result of overconsumption and underproduction, which is itself affected significantly by climate change.


And its not just the media - its basically every scientist on earth.
Climate change is not a media conspiracy.
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  #90  
Old 23.08.2016, 16:08
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Re: Switzerland is the third worst for overuse of resources

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Slammer, you missed the point entirely.


The point of the map is to show the deficit. There's two ways to cut any deficit - produce more or consume less. The map shows the difference between the two, in an answer to LiBs question about those who produce less, to consume less.


Production of crap is fine - its how the resources for the production of said crap are found that's the issue.
The point of the map is to present a complex state of affairs in a simple way. What is the data behind the map, how is it analysed, what is left out?

Other than the geographical shape, and political boundaries, the map is a construction based on a set of assumptions.
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  #91  
Old 23.08.2016, 16:10
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Re: Switzerland is the third worst for overuse of resources

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There is no problem with overpopulation. There is a problem with overconsumption.
I don't think there is a problem with overconsumption, there is a problem with under production. If you slow down the consumption, you slow down the production, and even those who don't get enough will get even less.

It seems a lot of this perspective comes from a sense of guilt that plays well with the politics of victimisation. But I don't see how that propels progress for those who need it most, rather it all looks like a prescription for suicide as a solution. The good news is that not everybody buys into that line of thinking. I know of some cultures that would.
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  #92  
Old 23.08.2016, 16:16
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Re: Switzerland is the third worst for overuse of resources

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The perspective about the use of resources is somewhat primitive and counter development. I would even call it an inhumane perspective. Resources that are not used are worthless. They have to be processed for some use to be of any value. The problem here is not about lack of resources, but the capability to produce something out of it. If you kill off all the producers, you're not going to alleviate issues of scarcity, you'll just make it worse.

the prospect of using less resources is only inhumane if you're used to using more of your fair share of the resources in the first place.


The salient point here is not the extraction of value from resources - it is the choice of those resources, and the way the value is extracted.


Extracting 10 million GW of electricity by burning coal is one way to generate electricity - but building a solar farm that can provide that is a far better use of resources in the long term, even if it is more expensive in the short term.


Capitalism at its finest :-)
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  #93  
Old 23.08.2016, 16:17
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Re: Switzerland is the third worst for overuse of resources

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Because 'overpopulation' is a result of overconsumption and underproduction, which is itself affected significantly by climate change.


And its not just the media - its basically every scientist on earth.
Climate change is not a media conspiracy.
Not questioning climate change, however the effects of it are still very much up for debate.

The developed world's population growth is more or less stable - Japan has more it's elderly in nappies than babies. Meanwhile the developing world's population growth is out of control. And they're the ones who will feel the effects of over population/over consumption far more.
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Old 23.08.2016, 16:19
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Re: Switzerland is the third worst for overuse of resources

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There is no problem with overpopulation. There is a problem with overconsumption. Nobody in any government or media feels like telling you "buy less crap" as this would be bad for business. As long as politicians are measured on the GDP per capita and media relies on ad revenues by people who try to sell you stuff is nothing going to change...
But this is basically capitalism. And capitalism has done far more to solve world hunger and poverty than anything else.
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  #95  
Old 23.08.2016, 16:27
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Re: Switzerland is the third worst for overuse of resources

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But this is basically capitalism. And capitalism has done far more to solve world hunger and poverty than anything else.

Only when feeding those hungry people and enriching them is a side effect of making money.
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Old 23.08.2016, 16:31
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Re: Switzerland is the third worst for overuse of resources

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Not questioning climate change, however the effects of it are still very much up for debate.

The developed world's population growth is more or less stable - Japan has more it's elderly in nappies than babies. Meanwhile the developing world's population growth is out of control. And they're the ones who will feel the effects of over population/over consumption far more.

Despite their higher birth rates, they are still within the limits of their ecological production. 'The Developed World' is, by and large, despite its lower birth rates, still outside the limits of their ecological production.


You need to uncouple the birth rate argument from the sustainability argument - the two are related but not directly. lowering the overall birth rate of the earth, while doing nothing to reduce the overall consumption will mean you just end up with fewer people consuming more - and that is, by all accounts an even bigger problem.


TL;DR:


A rising birth rate is sustainable for now. A rising consumption rate is not.
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Old 23.08.2016, 16:33
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Re: Switzerland is the third worst for overuse of resources

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Only when feeding those hungry people and enriching them is a side effect of making money.
Whose responsibility is that? The colonialists?
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  #98  
Old 23.08.2016, 16:41
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Re: Switzerland is the third worst for overuse of resources

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Whose responsibility is that? The colonialists?

Feeding the hungry?


No ones. and everyone's. Depends how you look at it.


You can either let them starve and they will come looking for a better life (probably where you live). Its perfectly valid to say 'not my responsibility' and let them starve to death, ignoring any future impact it may have on the rest of the word...


Or you can concede that helping them in the short term might cost you a bit now, but in the long term, its far better for you, your home, and theirs.
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Old 23.08.2016, 17:00
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Re: Switzerland is the third worst for overuse of resources

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Feeding the hungry?

No ones. and everyone's. Depends how you look at it.

You can either let them starve and they will come looking for a better life (probably where you live). Its perfectly valid to say 'not my responsibility' and let them starve to death, ignoring any future impact it may have on the rest of the word...

Or you can concede that helping them in the short term might cost you a bit now, but in the long term, its far better for you, your home, and theirs.

It's not like we have all the food here and they don't. In fact, a lot of the food that is here comes from there. I think we simply have a more efficient way of distributing the food here by means of exchanging values - a market system.

Now, I'm not sure if you've seen the distribution of wealth in many of these places. There is in fact a lot of wealth in these places, but it simply isn't being shared amongst them. They don't apply a fair market system, rather wealth is used as a means of power over other people, and those who have it don't seem to have an intention of sharing it with those in need of it. Yes, greed exists just as much over there.

The idea that the West have all the wealth and they don't is a myth. They simply haven't developed or adhered to a distribution system that allows those who need things to get them. This is not something that can be addressed by what people in the West do, it requires a change of behaviour there, not here.

I think all the talk about the West's consumption of goods is political nonsense. There really isn't a solution the "West" can apply for them, the solution has to come from them. Sure we can send food, but they'll be hungry again after they eat it. What they need to do is figure out for themselves how to produce the food they need.

And truth be told, it isn't really only about just food. They also want the latest plasma screen TVs, the latest iPhones and all the trappings of status and luxury.
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Old 23.08.2016, 17:27
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Re: Switzerland is the third worst for overuse of resources

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But this is basically capitalism. And capitalism has done far more to solve world hunger and poverty than anything else.
The reality is that the stuff that works best is typically a mix of capitalism in combination with legal frameworks. The reason our cars are as efficient as they are today is not the free market as the average buyer does not give a flying ... about emission standards. That's why we need parliaments in the first place.


Similar laws need to be in place to limit the things we see today. In France are supermarkets for example not allowed to waste food anymore. (https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...y-supermarkets) SHould be obvious, but pure capitalism doesn't care...
The same goes for
- food flown in from across the world having a carbon footprint worse than an SUV.
- using scarce water and fertile land in developing countries to produce food for export instead of feeding the locals... (certain companies have in the last couple of years been buying insanely huge parts of Africa...)
- unsustainable fishing practices. Explain me how capitalism is fixing those...
- pollution in general. People pollute cause it's cheaper to throw stuff away than to recycle or not produce waste through more expensive production methods...
- the list is endless.


Your neo-capitalist convictions from the 90s are ok, but they are simply not true: When humans have the choice between a quick buck and sustainable practices do they nearly alwayse choose the money. This might feed people better in the very short run, but has brought a lot of 3rd world countries close to ecological breakdowns. Those refugees you hate so much? If you don't want them to come do you need to feed them... or stop complaining about them.
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