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  #81  
Old 05.10.2016, 00:27
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Re: Poland abortion law

I don't even know why that's a discussion, though of course there will always be the diehard conservatives, screaming "abortion is murder"-whatever. I can't even be bothered to care all that much.

Every semi-progressive country should be pro choice. Zero exceptions. There's not a whole lot of issues where I would take to the streets - but on this I would. If anyone would ever issue more restrictive laws on abortion in Switzerland, I'd fight it tooth and nail.

Whether abortion should be legal or not is not even up for debate. It is an absolute must that it is legal. Yes yes we all know no one has to get pregnant these days if they don't want to and yeah yeah we know, it's just stupidity if they do anyway (I even agree). I would laugh in anyone's face if they told me that I would HAVE to carry the baby to term and put it up for adoption. Women's bodies, women's choice and yes, at this point in time, it is that simple.

Don't even get me started on the whole "well but if she was raped it's different". Interesting. How so? Abortion is either murder in the eyes of some or it is not. People either believe in woman's right to choose or they don't. The result is exactly the same whether it was rape or an unplanned pregnancy resulting from voluntary intercourse. Aside from that, no one has a right to play God and establish some kind of moral baseline for when abortion is ok and when it is not.

Aside from that, it cannot possibly be a better option to make abortion illegal or criminalize it in any shape or form. Not only will it not reduce the number of abortions, but it will instead inevitably result in a) illegal abortions under often highly questionable to outright unsafe, dangerous circumstances and b) unwanted or abandoned children. Yes. Awesome. True alternative. Or do those who are anti-choice really believe that just because abortion is illegal, those women who get pregnant without wanting the child will of course change their minds if they carry it to term and then see it for the first time and fall in love and live happily ever after? Dream on.
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  #82  
Old 05.10.2016, 00:36
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Poland abortion law

Samaire13,
in the same spirit, do you think it is fine to kill random nuisance cats? I'm sick of the mess they live everywhere.
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  #83  
Old 05.10.2016, 00:56
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Re: Poland abortion law

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Samaire13,
in the same spirit, do you think it is fine to kill random nuisance cats? I'm sick of the mess they live everywhere.
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What does that have to do with anything? What mess do they live (? leave?)? Has anyone said abortion has anything to do with "hating babies/children" or "the mess they leave" or that they're "a nuisance" of sorts or whatever it is exactly you are trying to say?

If that's what you're getting at: I know people who had an abortion at some point yet went on to have children later. One has nothing to do with the other. No one uses abortion as a form of birth control. Do you think it's an easy decision or a painfree process (physically and psychologically) for any woman? Hardly. And no, I've never had an abortion myself, just to be clear as it might seem I have.
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Old 05.10.2016, 01:36
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Re: Poland abortion law

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That stupid belief being democracy?

There is a group in Poland which wants to retrict abortions. My point is to put it to a vote. The ideal situation would be to vote first on if it needs regulation at all other than that only trained professionals should carry out the operation. The second vote could be then who should carry the financial cost.

Note, I have not written anything to indicate my personal preference as to abortions. I take it that as a man I am nonetheless entitled to an opinion, regardless of which other stupid beliefs I happen to hold.
One of the underpinnings of democracy is the protection of minority basic rights in the face of majority rule. As reproductive rights/autonomy of one's body is a basic right, then a vote may not be the way forward.

Consider, for example, women's right to vote in Canada. The struggle to get the vote for women faced great opposition by the majority and was only achieved by extensive lobbying and activism which over time made the change possible. Had the matter been decided simply by vote (only men being able to vote, many/most of whom were in opposition) it would have taken much longer to achieve (I like to believe we would have gotten their eventually, shamed into it by other countries perhaps).
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Old 05.10.2016, 01:53
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Re: Poland abortion law

It's a bit disappointing to see this archaic topic of abortion (which usually falls into same category as her peer euthanasia) being not properly dealt with in some parts of the world where secular vs religious and moral vs pragmatic is still battling each other going hand in hand.

After century of societies progression, I just sincerely hope that, whoever pulls those conservative strings not giving a woman freedom of personal choice, will take a good night sleep or two and rethink their stance on the issue afresh next day.
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Old 05.10.2016, 08:28
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Re: Poland abortion law

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I think the subject matter is one of the most emotive you can ever debate online. When I was a mod on a political forum, a single abortion debate required as much admin intervention as the entire Israel / Palestine section of the forum.

Good luck getting this thread past 4 pages without someone getting banned
I was sure you were right, but... apparently not. Emotions are just starting to get charged now.
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Old 05.10.2016, 08:41
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Re: Poland abortion law

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One of the underpinnings of democracy is the protection of minority basic rights in the face of majority rule. As reproductive rights/autonomy of one's body is a basic right, then a vote may not be the way forward.

Consider, for example, women's right to vote in Canada. The struggle to get the vote for women faced great opposition by the majority and was only achieved by extensive lobbying and activism which over time made the change possible. Had the matter been decided simply by vote (only men being able to vote, many/most of whom were in opposition) it would have taken much longer to achieve (I like to believe we would have gotten their eventually, shamed into it by other countries perhaps).
I would like to think that things have improved since the days of Nellie McClung.

I take heart in Scotland allowing the youth to vote on the Referendum.

Using the democratic mechanism at least exposes the issue and the decision, to my mind this is vastly superior to some back room deal.
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Old 05.10.2016, 08:50
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Re: Poland abortion law

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What does that have to do with anything? What mess do they live (? leave?)? Has anyone said abortion has anything to do with "hating babies/children" or "the mess they leave" or that they're "a nuisance" of sorts or whatever it is exactly you are trying to say?
No. I wanted to say that in public discourse human rights of a baby have been stripped out, therefore effectively giving better legal protection to some animals. Ideally everyone should be equal, some activists also put animals there - fine. Now, declaring an unborn baby basically a thing, it is stripped from any protection. You're arguing that mother's rights should prevail completely. I argue that they shouldn't except for danger of death - one doesn't shoot a thief in Europe.
Effectively, part of society glosses over the suffering and injustice to certain human beings, but considers some animals as worth special protection.
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Old 05.10.2016, 09:37
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Re: Poland abortion law

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No. I wanted to say that in public discourse human rights of a baby have been stripped out, therefore effectively giving better legal protection to some animals. Ideally everyone should be equal, some activists also put animals there - fine. Now, declaring an unborn baby basically a thing, it is stripped from any protection. You're arguing that mother's rights should prevail completely. I argue that they shouldn't except for danger of death - one doesn't shoot a thief in Europe.
Effectively, part of society glosses over the suffering and injustice to certain human beings, but considers some animals as worth special protection.
Which countries have laws against animal abortion
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Old 05.10.2016, 09:40
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Re: Poland abortion law

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Methinks what put me of abortion for good was a short film (this is years ago, long before the internet) using ultrasound to show what a baby does when being mechanically aborted, read pulled out of the womb, i.e. suction, whatever...
It actually fought the device, trying to push it away with it´s hands, it kicked and squirmed but in the end... Schlorp!
So your views are formed on one propaganda film which you have no way of knowing is/was a typical procedure and a film that might have been adjusted or edited?
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Old 05.10.2016, 09:41
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Re: Poland abortion law

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...
Good luck getting this thread past 4 pages without someone getting banned
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I doubt it'll get to four pages...
Oh well, looks like we're both wrong.

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I define it as the moment it takes it's first gulp of air.

Tom
It's not uncommon for a baby to be born not breathing, needing a little assistance to start.

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If you don't believe in abortion, then don't have sex with any pre-menopausal woman. It's really that easy.
Too simplistic. Here's a fuller version.

If you don't believe in abortion, then don't have sex with any pre-menopausal woman, unless you're both happy to have a baby or you are sterile, or she is sterile, or you're both against abortion.
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  #92  
Old 05.10.2016, 09:46
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Re: Poland abortion law

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...
Too simplistic. Here's a fuller version.

If you don't believe in abortion, then don't have sex with any pre-menopausal woman, unless you're both happy to have a baby or you are sterile, or she is sterile, or you're both against abortion, and you have excellent reason to believe that the other won't change their mind.
ftfy
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  #93  
Old 05.10.2016, 09:50
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Re: Poland abortion law

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No. I wanted to say that in public discourse human rights of a baby have been stripped out, therefore effectively giving better legal protection to some animals. Ideally everyone should be equal, some activists also put animals there - fine. Now, declaring an unborn baby basically a thing, it is stripped from any protection. You're arguing that mother's rights should prevail completely. I argue that they shouldn't except for danger of death - one doesn't shoot a thief in Europe.
Effectively, part of society glosses over the suffering and injustice to certain human beings, but considers some animals as worth special protection.
Yeah as said, there's no point discussing this. There is a massive difference between a live animal (and of course a live baby) and a foetus that is a maximum of 12 weeks "old" or even much less than that.

But it's a pointless discussion cause you have your opinion and I have mine. If you want to say a e.g. 2 week old foetus is the same as a fully existing, live person (or cat or dog or whatever), then I'll let you have that opinion.

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Which countries have laws against animal abortion
Well that too...
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  #94  
Old 05.10.2016, 09:57
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Re: Poland abortion law

Teach women and men to protect themselves and their partners, offer more accessible and better health and prophylaxis services and probably we won't need to even discuss laws like this.
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Old 05.10.2016, 10:04
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Re: Poland abortion law

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But it's a pointless discussion cause you have your opinion and I have mine. If you want to say a e.g. 2 week old foetus is the same as a fully existing, live person (or cat or dog or whatever), then I'll let you have that opinion. Just don't try to impose it on everyone else
FTFY.

No-one has the right to tell someone else what they themselves may do with their own body insofar as that action doesn't directly affect any other non-consenting living person. Including abortion, euthanasia and whatever sexual practices they may want to indulge in.
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Old 05.10.2016, 10:35
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Re: Poland abortion law

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Yeah as said, there's no point discussing this. There is a massive difference between a live animal (and of course a live baby) and a foetus that is a maximum of 12 weeks "old" or even much less than that.

But it's a pointless discussion cause you have your opinion and I have mine. If you want to say a e.g. 2 week old foetus is the same as a fully existing, live person (or cat or dog or whatever), then I'll let you have that opinion.
400-500 abortions after week 12 in CH every year, roughly half of them happen due to physical or genetical issues. And of course, the week count is based on the woman's statement when she had her last period, it's trivial to shift the countdown's starting point.
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Old 05.10.2016, 10:41
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Re: Poland abortion law

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400-500 abortions after week 12 in CH every year, roughly half of them happen due to physical or genetical issues.
That is not the kind of abortion people so vehemently fight usually, though.

Cause let's be real. As I said earlier - an abortion is an abortion with the same end result. But of course there is a moral compass, especially for those against it. Too stupid to use a condom (again, I hear there's two people that are too stupid for that) - GOD FORBID you should have an abortion cause you better live with the consequences of your own stupidity. Abortion after rape? Yes of course morally, everyone can understand that women may choose not to have a daily reminder of their ordeal. Abortion because of a massive genetic problem that the child when born would either not survive at all or live a life that is (again, in the moral eyes of some), not worth living? Well that's still kind of okayish, some would say.

So who has the right to draw the line and make that type of moral judgment? No one. There's women who were raped, get pregnant and still keep the child. There's women who decide they don't care that their child will be born with a genetic defect that will not allow him or her to live a "normal" life and lead to death in a few years - they still want it. And there's plenty of women who keep their children even if the pregnancy was unplanned. There's significantly more, in fact, who do, rather than abort it.

There is a reason it's not called pro abortion, but pro CHOICE. It's not about saying, you HAVE to do X in situation Y. It's about being able to CHOOSE what you think is best for you and, potentially, the child.
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Old 05.10.2016, 10:48
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Re: Poland abortion law

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In some countries killing is morally OK: stoning adulterous woman to death in Muslim countries, death penalty in the USA, etc....I am atheist and a person from sciences and my point is not about morality... It is just that you cannot go against biology and common sense. Aborting is killing a human being.
How is your point not about morality?? You have made the decision to view aborting a pregnancy the same as killing a human being, that is a moral perspective. You are free to have your perspective but you are not free to force all women to go through with an unwanted pregnancy.

This isn't just about your views on biology, these are women's lives. Women have to go through the pregnancy so they get to choose what goes on in their body.

What is the difference between using condoms, taking other contraceptives and an abortion? They are all aborting the potential for human life.

You do see most abortions happen very early on in a pregnancy in countries where abortion is more readily available and accepted, whereas in a country where it is becoming more and more difficult to get an abortion, they occur later on in the pregnancy.
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Old 05.10.2016, 10:53
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Re: Poland abortion law

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Don't even get me started on the whole "well but if she was raped it's different". Interesting. How so? Abortion is either murder in the eyes of some or it is not. People either believe in woman's right to choose or they don't. The result is exactly the same whether it was rape or an unplanned pregnancy resulting from voluntary intercourse. Aside from that, no one has a right to play God and establish some kind of moral baseline for when abortion is ok and when it is not.
Excellent post. And I especially agree with this part, I've never understood rape or incest "exceptions". If aborting a fetus is murder, then how is not murder just because it was conceived in a manner that the woman had no control over? To me this is where the argument by many anti-abortioners, in particular the very religious ones, breaks down. It's usually worth asking whether on top of being against abortion, they support easy access to contraceptives and solid sex education, two things that prevent abortion more effectively than anything else. Very often the answer is no. This is where it becomes clear that the concern of an alarming number of "pro-life" people isn't concern for the fetus, but the control of (female) sexuality. Make the dumb hussy carry the baby to term, but don't put the innocent ones through the ordeal.
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Old 05.10.2016, 11:27
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Re: Poland abortion law

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Don't even get me started on the whole "well but if she was raped it's different". Interesting. How so?
Well, that thinking is quite telling. Because what it really shows is that person is saying "when a woman is raped, it is not her fault. but when she get's pregnant, it is her fault and so she should live with the consequences of her actions".

It is about blame, chastity, sex outside marriage and all the other hang-ups that the religious types have.

It is not about the trade-off between protecting the life of a baby versus protecting the rights of the mother.

Currently, children are protected by law from being killed by parents. In many parts of the world, just-born babies are also protected from being killed (though some may tacitly allow infanticide). One aspect of the abortion debate (and for me, really the only meaningful one) is how far back in time do you extend this protection. Should you extend it before birth? If so, how long before? How do you balance this with the right of the mother over her own body?
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