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  #141  
Old 06.10.2016, 13:00
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Re: Poland abortion law

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I flip the buns at McDonalds.
These days that's sexual harrassment
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  #142  
Old 06.10.2016, 13:16
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Re: Poland abortion law

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It's the last thing I'll say on this specific matter (i.e. murder vs non-murder) as you and I or Urs Max and I (and others) will NEVER see eye to eye on this.

A foetus that is a few weeks old is not a "human being" or even "alive". It could never survive on its own and only "exists" because of the mother.

You see it as a human being, I don't and never will. You see it as murder, I don't and never will.
That's enough a good answer for me. If you deprive a baby from food and water, it's going to die. Same thing if you take the fetus out from the placenta.

For your information, the heart of a fetus starts pumping blood with only 3 weeks... Just saying...

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That all being said, I'd still love to have an answer on the below. Since you think it's a "live baby" and "abortion is murder", then why any exceptions?



So a baby resulting from rape somehow less of a "live human being" (according to you) and aborting it is somehow less of a "murder" (again, according to you)? Or a woman needs an "understandable reason" and then that "murder" becomes less of a murder? Fascinating. Who are you to judge what is an "understandable reason" and what is not?

Make up your mind. It's either a "live human being" and aborting it is "murder", or it is not. There is no grey zone, only black and white.
You are completely right and I agree 100% with your reasoning. That was my fault of assuming that the readers on this thread were following specifically the Polish law case. What I meant was that those reasons (i.e. rape, malformation, life risk) are coherent factors for someone who wants to logically justify the abortion. I did not say that I concur with them. So yeah, putting aside religion, personal opinions, etc., abortion is murder from a purely biological stand point.
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  #143  
Old 06.10.2016, 13:19
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Re: Poland abortion law

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My post was about organisms, your insertion was completely useless. Next time perhaps read what gets quoted.
"your insertion was completely useless" That would render this discussion also useless.
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  #144  
Old 06.10.2016, 13:34
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Re: Poland abortion law

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And there would be some sort of zip arrangement and a cure for morning sickness and acid reflux.
And there would be lively debate about whether Snap-on, Hazett, or Facom were better than making your own from scratch.
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  #145  
Old 06.10.2016, 13:45
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Re: Poland abortion law

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Also, I agree that Poland is not more corrupt or less democratic than many other democratic countries. But I do not think it is condescending to call it a "young and struggling" democracy. Its relationship with the rest of the EU is not easy and they have the heavy burden of their communist past affecting the political culture, with the populist tendencies sometimes endangering democratic rule of law.
It's always easy to sue such sounbytes as "young and struggling democracy" when trying to talk down tendencies you disagree with. The communist past can in some respects be a strength rather than a weakness as people have real first hand experience of what repression and censorship is and may have different attitudes to it than people like us who have just learnt about it in school history lessons. I don't know much about Poland but I have friends in Hungary and from talking to them, communism was a very formative experience to go through and it makes them deeply cynical about a large number of topics.
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  #146  
Old 06.10.2016, 16:59
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Re: Poland abortion law

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In both early nineties and in 1997 the number of cases was around 10k. It probably has decreased from the communist times number because of availability of the birth control, I guess, but haven't researched this decline in eighties.
Therefore the extrapolation of "pro-file" is in tens of thousands.
Germany had about 100K legal abortions in 2014. With about half as many inhabitants but a much worse access to sex education and birth control I'm not surprised if the number in Poland is at least in the very high 10Ks. The rich/educated will go to Germany, the uneducated/poor will turn to the countless advertisements offering an 'induction of period'. They will get tablets that can be used for abortion, most likely off label (the relatively safe drugs available for medical abortion are not registered in Poland), in the best case under some sort of medical supervision. There are no numbers on how many deaths and injuries (including infertility) result from these practices.
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  #147  
Old 06.10.2016, 17:05
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Re: Poland abortion law

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Germany had about 100K legal abortions in 2014. With about half as many inhabitants but a much worse access to sex education and birth control I'm not surprised if the number in Poland is at least in the very high 10Ks. The rich/educated will go to Germany, the uneducated/poor will turn to the countless advertisements offering an 'induction of period'. They will get tablets that can be used for abortion, most likely off label (the relatively safe drugs available for medical abortion are not registered in Poland), in the best case under some sort of medical supervision. There are no numbers on how many deaths and injuries (including infertility) result from these practices.
see figures here:

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/poli...ab-poland.html
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  #148  
Old 06.10.2016, 17:19
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Re: Poland abortion law

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see figures here:
Yes, my intention was to counter yacek's claim that these numbers should be discredited because they came from an activist, with an estimation. A very conservative one as stricter abortion laws tend to correlate with a higher abortion rate. [Maybe the last not so much, the rates seem to compare, legal or not]

Last edited by mgosia; 06.10.2016 at 18:17. Reason: New info
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  #149  
Old 06.10.2016, 17:24
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Re: Poland abortion law

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Germany had about 100K legal abortions in 2014. With about half as many inhabitants but a much worse access to sex education and birth control I'm not surprised if the number in Poland is at least in the very high 10Ks.
Austria may be a fair comparison as Catholocism still is rather strong although with 60% the share is smaller than Poland's with about 90%. No official statistics, but estimatest are for 20-30k abortions in Austria annually among 8.4mln population. That may allow extrapolating what numbers were to be expected with full legalisation.
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  #150  
Old 06.10.2016, 18:14
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Re: Poland abortion law

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Austria may be a fair comparison as Catholocism still is rather strong although with 60% the share is smaller than Poland's with about 90%. No official statistics, but estimatest are for 20-30k abortions in Austria annually among 8.4mln population. That may allow extrapolating what numbers were to be expected with full legalisation.
So around 4.5x that for Poland, although I would still expect it to be higher due to lower access to sex education and birth control.
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  #151  
Old 07.10.2016, 00:35
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Re: Poland abortion law

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So around 4.5x that for Poland, although I would still expect it to be higher due to lower access to sex education and birth control.
Perhaps not. If you look at Phil's johnstonarchive link, the numbers 1982-1987 are a near-perfect match, just don't ask me what the legal situation was back then.
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  #152  
Old 07.10.2016, 01:10
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Poland abortion law

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So around 4.5x that for Poland, although I would still expect it to be higher due to lower access to sex education and birth control.
Intereting. AIDS infections in Poland are about 5x less frequent than in Austria. This is due to lower sex education and worse drug access?
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  #153  
Old 07.10.2016, 02:19
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Re: Poland abortion law

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Intereting. AIDS infections in Poland are about 5x less frequent than in Austria. This is due to lower sex education and worse drug access?
Would you care to comment on where your numbers come from? According to www.nelp-hiv.org estimated numbers of people living with HIV in Austria vs Poland are 9K vs 50K.
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  #154  
Old 07.10.2016, 04:02
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Re: Poland abortion law

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Would you care to comment on where your numbers come from? According to www.nelp-hiv.org estimated numbers of people living with HIV in Austria vs Poland are 9K vs 50K.
I've looked in Wikipedia:
List of countries by HIV/AIDS adult prevalence rate
Poland: 0.07% among adults
Austria: 0.4% among adults

But now I googled countries data.
Poland: HIV/AIDS stats in Poland
1985 - 2016: number of infected: 20 thousands
Austria: Austria HIV/AIDS stats
12 to 15 thousands, time span probably from start of epidemic until now.
Population is 4.5x times different, thus giving a 3 times higher rate in Austria.

Now, there might be underreporting, and of course and assumption of a correlation between prevalence of STDs and number of unplanned pregnancies and then of unplanned pregnancies terminated is of course a total guess, because there are so many factors (what infections vectors, etc).
But this shows that such a think like abortion rate cannot be really simply estimated by saying "these are catholics". I could use as well the argument that "Austrians were nazis" and would it explain anything?
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  #155  
Old 07.10.2016, 10:32
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Re: Poland abortion law

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Now, there might be underreporting
There is huge underdiagnosis, the link I posted reports ~30K HIV tests in Poland in 2014 vs over 1mln (!!!) in Austria. You dismiss estimates of illegal abortions in Poland because they are reported by activists, then dismiss sound arguments that these numbers are probably not completely out of the blue with a comparison to HIV that misses one of the most important factors why the official numbers cannot be compared
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  #156  
Old 07.10.2016, 11:11
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Re: Poland abortion law

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There is huge underdiagnosis, the link I posted reports ~30K HIV tests in Poland in 2014 vs over 1mln (!!!) in Austria.
Don't trust the activists. I've found numerous press articles dating to 2012-2013 taking about polls where about 10% say doing a test at least once. The 30k number you quoted is consistent with the dedicated hib prevention centers, but this is not the only place people do tests. About 10% pregnant does the the test, so it would be as easy as comparing the rate of detection in order to have a crude estimate of unknown cases with female population but I have to earn a living now :-)
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  #157  
Old 07.10.2016, 11:21
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Re: Poland abortion law

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Don't trust the activists.
Ministry of Health statistics should be pretty accurate because they usually pay for everything related to certain diseases.
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  #158  
Old 07.10.2016, 11:58
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Re: Poland abortion law

So the proposal has now been voted down.

So obviously the protests served their purpose.

Who will be the first to point out that the nice thing about populist government is that they bow to popular opinion?
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  #159  
Old 07.10.2016, 12:25
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Re: Poland abortion law

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Austria may be a fair comparison as Catholocism still is rather strong although with 60% the share is smaller than Poland's with about 90%. No official statistics, but estimatest are for 20-30k abortions in Austria annually among 8.4mln population. That may allow extrapolating what numbers were to be expected with full legalisation.
Not all forms of Catholicism were created equal. Poland and Austria are very different countries in terms of attitudes and culture. You can't really pull up one statistic out of context and assume all other casues and effects must be equal.

You also have to look at cultural and historical aspects and how these influenced society. As Yacek explained, Poland suffered under both Nazism and Stalinism. They escaped one terrible dictatorship, only to discover that the liberators they had welcomed with open arms were equally cruel. In fact if you look at Polish history it goes back much further than that. There is a long record of Poland having been reperatedely betrayed by its neighbours who tried to wipe it off the map. Although some Austrians, especially on the far right, try to paint Austria as also having been an innocent victim of Naziism, most would indeed consider them more co-perpetrators than victims, and if you go back in history, you will again find more cases of Austria conquering other countries than being at the receiving end. This changes one's perspective on the past
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Old 07.10.2016, 13:02
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Re: Poland abortion law

@amogles: about Poland: you never know if some is decent because of higher standing, or is just to weak to cause harm :-) Regarding Austrians, there was a very scathing article in NZZ last year how there was so much popular support for Anschluss to Reich.
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