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  #141  
Old 07.10.2016, 23:19
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Re: Post Truth Politics

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I don't disagree with this, and "truth" is simply what any given community agrees it is followed by adherence to the agreed definition. using the US example, we have agreed that "all men are created equal", even though factually of course this is not correct. it is not the failure of the agreed definition to be factually correct that renders it "untrue", but rather the community's failure to adhere to the agreed definition.

which was intended to be the crux of my post - no community has ever faithfully adhered to its agreed definition of "truth". it is no worse today than it was 50, 500, or 5,000 years ago, we only have more access to news and other data points that confirm it for us every day.
I'm not sure it was so much a point of agreement, as more of a preamble to why the US was doing what it did. It was reciting the basic precept of the American philosophy, and then uses it as the raison d'Ítre for declaring independence from England. Namely that all men have unalienable rights at birth. Circumstances may alter that of course, such as committing a crime or something out of control of anybody, or a hostile community. I don't see it state that the community is to provide it, or to ensure it, as the word "unalienable" implies a person already has it.

The actual text from the Declaration of Independence:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed;"
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  #142  
Old 08.10.2016, 00:29
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Re: Post Truth Politics

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Oh rubbish, he's given gentle criticism over what he really deserves, it's more like, "Oh, what a cad, but he says something" over, "he's a literal con man"
You need to read more American conservative media. They crap all over trump in the most brutal of ways. E.g. see National Review.
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  #143  
Old 08.10.2016, 00:30
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Re: Post Truth Politics

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I don't disagree with this, and "truth" is simply what any given community agrees it is followed by adherence to the agreed definition. using the US example, we have agreed that "all men are created equal", even though factually of course this is not correct. it is not the failure of the agreed definition to be factually correct that renders it "untrue", but rather the community's failure to adhere to the agreed definition.

which was intended to be the crux of my post - no community has ever faithfully adhered to its agreed definition of "truth". it is no worse today than it was 50, 500, or 5,000 years ago, we only have more access to news and other data points that confirm it for us every day.
Would you care to elaborate when you say that all men are not created equal? Do you mean that some are born into better positions or would you say that you can tell at birth that some are better than others?
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  #144  
Old 09.10.2016, 04:36
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Re: Post Truth Politics

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Would you care to elaborate when you say that all men are not created equal?[..]
It depends on the meaning of the word "men". Obviously it allows excluding women, colored people, inmates, perhaps others. Since there are precedents of significantly large proportions any part of society can be excluded...
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  #145  
Old 09.10.2016, 08:23
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Re: Post Truth Politics

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Would you care to elaborate when you say that all men are not created equal? Do you mean that some are born into better positions or would you say that you can tell at birth that some are better than others?
I don't know about @ birth, but clearly by the time people reach adulthood - and the vote - some are better than others...

The whole "my ignorance is as valuable as your knowledge" anti-intellectualism is scary when combined with people's attention spans now measured in the length of a tweet and everyone being given an equal platform.

It's all about soundbites appealing to the masses.
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  #146  
Old 09.10.2016, 08:55
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Re: Post Truth Politics

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The whole "my ignorance is as valuable as your knowledge" anti-intellectualism is scary when combined with people's attention spans now measured in the length of a tweet and everyone being given an equal platform.
.
People should deserve platform based on knowledge, at least have the chance, though, to fight for it. It is a bit of a loop with Trump, he has made it far because of the fashion of everybody's blabbering being treated equal, basically just by ridiculousness (without even opening his mouth, the tupee, the gestures, fake tan..). But I hope at the end, the whole absurd show will make people crave to follow again somebody who actually merits it, deserves it. People shouldn't be treated equal in the the political run with high stakes - competence/intelligence/ethics/experience/tactics/diplomacy should classify them and discriminate. It might happen again when those things matter to media and sales, because it is media and sales that dictate the state of politics in the US, really. The actual candidates are irrelevant.
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  #147  
Old 15.10.2016, 21:22
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Re: Post Truth Politics

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I don't know about @ birth, but clearly by the time people reach adulthood - and the vote - some are better than others...

The whole "my ignorance is as valuable as your knowledge" anti-intellectualism is scary when combined with people's attention spans now measured in the length of a tweet and everyone being given an equal platform.

It's all about soundbites appealing to the masses.
What bugs me is that it seems a lot of the people who want to go back to the 50s as an ideal time, no longer accept that science is an honest quest for truth, but a political choice of career, where as it used to be a revered vocation. Now science seemed to be viewed with supsicion, people only turning up facts for a political agenda.

When did trying to figure out how the world and our environmnent works become a political point of view?

Fine if you think that causing harm to the environment because you think there's overriding economic forces that require you to do it, not fine to just say, nah, my actions have no consequences.
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  #148  
Old 15.10.2016, 21:27
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Re: Post Truth Politics

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Fine if you think that causing harm to the environment because you think there's overriding economic forces that require you to do it, not fine to just say, nah, my actions have no consequences.
But this is a political statement itself.
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  #149  
Old 15.10.2016, 21:39
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Re: Post Truth Politics

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But this is a political statement itself.
Right or left? Is it political to say actions have consequences?
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  #150  
Old 15.10.2016, 22:18
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Re: Post Truth Politics

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Right or left? Is it political to say actions have consequences?
These days, for that you will be called: insensitive, opressive and using your over-privileged unrightfully gained power. People believing in smart simple truths should be ashamed of themselves since they figured it out while others surely can't.

I would just say you are using your brain. The problem is - there would have to be interest in it. In ideas that offer those consequences.

Which is why Trump is so popular, nobody cares for truth, when it doesn't suit their quest for power. You still assume it is in all people's interest to actually seek the truth. People are ok with good sounding snippets that gel with their expectations or wishes.
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  #151  
Old 15.10.2016, 22:23
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Re: Post Truth Politics

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Right or left? Is it political to say actions have consequences?
And what is your solution to the problem you describe re the environment? Is it not a political solution?
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  #152  
Old 15.10.2016, 22:29
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Re: Post Truth Politics

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And what is your solution to the problem you describe re the environment? Is it not a political solution?
Uhmm, did i pretend to offer a solution or am i stating that there's a problem with people who say there is no problem?
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  #153  
Old 16.10.2016, 12:33
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Re: Post Truth Politics

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Uhmm, did i pretend to offer a solution or am i stating that there's a problem with people who say there is no problem?
The point, of course, is that you are bemoaning that people don't put "science" above politics while at the same time any solution to the scientific problem you use as an example, damage to the environment vs. economic growth, would be a political solution. In my opinion, people are justified in being wary of those who proclaim themselves to be experts above politics.
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  #154  
Old 18.10.2016, 04:26
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Re: Post Truth Politics

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Would you care to elaborate when you say that all men are not created equal? Do you mean that some are born into better positions or would you say that you can tell at birth that some are better than others?
the American notion of "being created equal" means equality under the law, which was definitely not true when it was written and is also not true today.
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  #155  
Old 18.10.2016, 10:37
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Re: Post Truth Politics

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the American notion of "being created equal" means equality under the law, which was definitely not true when it was written and is also not true today.
Sadly, you're right - certain elites are above the law.
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  #156  
Old 18.10.2016, 12:15
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Re: Post Truth Politics

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Sadly, you're right - certain elites are above the law.
Well, I kinda think it is naieve to all of a sudden expect ethics. It is not just a matter of elites. And the demands on ethics should not be just made on elites.

The general feel in the egocentric society is that ethics belong to church maybe, some charitable activities and an occasional fundraising. A couple of shallow, marketable "say no to...". Slogans political parties or candidates come up with, to feel different.

The idea of ethics has been systematically ostracized as inconvenient, in any sphere of life. There is not enough practice, no training field, so why expect it. The reduction happens on whatever pretext - relativity of ethical thinking would be probably the fastest to come to mind, or people being busy with the oppression olympics, you name it.

But you will have majority of folks criticizing "the elites". Loads of seemingly ethical societal moves, on top, have not been ethical at all, and bring more problems for the target social strata that it is supposed to help.

For ethics - people need time and space to think. Time is money. Money is the most important thing, so there is no time.

Some of the post truth politics questions we have will deal with the quality of thinking, of all of us. The ethics of individual, the ethics implemented, the distance from cash that we are so hooked on and that slowly and unnoticed debilitates our cognitive competences and hence our liberties that everybody is rallying for.
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  #157  
Old 18.10.2016, 12:27
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Re: Post Truth Politics

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Well, I kinda think it is naieve to all of a sudden expect ethics. It is not just a matter of elites. And the demands on ethics should not be just made on elites.

The general feel in the egocentric society is that ethics belong to church maybe, some charitable activities and an occasional fundraising. A couple of shallow, marketable "say no to...". Slogans political parties or candidates come up with, to feel different.

The idea of ethics has been systematically ostracized as inconvenient, in any sphere of life. There is not enough practice, no training field, so why expect it. The reduction happens on whatever pretext - relativity of ethical thinking would be probably the fastest to come to mind, or people being busy with the oppression olympics, you name it.

But you will have majority of folks criticizing "the elites". Loads of seemingly ethical societal moves, on top, have not been ethical at all, and bring more problems for the target social strata that it is supposed to help.

For ethics - people need time and space to think. Time is money. Money is the most important thing, so there is no time.

Some of the post truth politics questions we have will deal with the quality of thinking, of all of us. The ethics of individual, the ethics implemented, the distance from cash that we are so hooked on and that slowly and unnoticed debilitates our cognitive competences and hence our liberties that everybody is rallying for.
Agreed - ethics is a step beyond what is to be realistically expected of everyone. What I was referring to was actual illegality. The clearest examples of the law not applying to everyone are found where the elite get to do what others cannot. That is why I use them as an example that the rule of law does not apply to everyone, sadly.
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  #158  
Old 18.10.2016, 12:36
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Re: Post Truth Politics

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Agreed - ethics is a step beyond what is to be realistically expected of everyone. What I was referring to was actual illegality. The clearest examples of the law not applying to everyone are found where the elite get to do what others cannot. That is why I use them as an example that the rule of law does not apply to everyone, sadly.
Why? Because they have cash. Or hog access to information which I think is actually more important than cash.

In a system where you simply provide cash to buy yourself out of ethical-legal justice, everything else becomes a joke. Everybody runs for cash as the only way to counter it or secure some advantage that a weak legal system does not provide.

Post truth, relativity is about impact. What has a potent impact as it is - cash? Info? How well we think and use the limited info we have? Info is not free and even online it is sold, exchanged. Change schools, change people's expectations and demands on quality, armor them with info, provide cognitive practice - then democracy, ethics, liberties make sense. As it is, there is no demand for those.

I think to nag about post truth, and all the relativity, is just cosmetics. People have what they ask for. They will have more when they ask for more.
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Old 18.10.2016, 12:52
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Re: Post Truth Politics

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Why? Because they have cash. Or hog access to information which I think is actually more important than cash.

In a system where you simply provide cash to buy yourself out of ethical-legal justice, everything else becomes a joke. Everybody runs for cash as the only way to counter it or secure some advantage that a weak legal system does not provide.

Post truth, relativity is about impact. What has a potent impact as it is - cash? Info? How well we think and use the limited info we have? Info is not free and even online it is sold, exchanged. Change schools, change people's expectations and demands on quality, armor them with info, provide cognitive practice - then democracy, ethics, liberties make sense. As it is, there is no demand for those.

I think to nag about post truth, and all the relativity, is just cosmetics. People have what they ask for. They will have more when they ask for more.
The significant loss isn't the truth, but rather rationality. Sadly it is easier to trick people into following some party line than it is to convince them that doing the "right" or "correct" thing isn't always to their advantage, either immediate or ever. A rational person (or society) can make mistakes, recognise them, and take corrective action. Once rationality flies out the window it is impossible to evaluate, let alone take corrective action.

People don't have what they ask for, and they aren't really aware that they themselves might be part of the problem... some "leader" points at someone else and says "It's their fault" and nobody seems to ask "Really? Everything is their fault? If we just get rid of them then we will have Utopia?".
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Old 18.10.2016, 13:06
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Re: Post Truth Politics

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It's called confirmation bias. Everybody does it.
The question is why not everybody challenges it.
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