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View Poll Results: Will Trump be a good President?
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  #841  
Old 20.11.2016, 15:12
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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If you read what the castmember actually said (https://www.bustle.com/articles/1960...ude-harassment) you would see that although there was an expression of concern, there was no hate or disrespect in that statement. They did, in fact, explicitly welcome Pence, stated that booing was not called for, and called for unity.

Trump's tweets, on the other hand, accused the cast (and later the producers) of being rude and also claimed the show is "highly overrated".

If someone has missed the high road here, it is Trump.
To my knowledge, the only time Trump has taken the high road was in his remarks about Hillary in his victory speech (and perhaps for meeting with Romney). I'm not holding my breath for the next time this happens.

But, sadly, the US is in a place where many Republican voters are tired of their candidates taking the high road. It sure didn't do GH and GW Bush any good.
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  #842  
Old 20.11.2016, 15:20
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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An editorial on booing Pence at Hamilton, from the perspective of his actions toward LBGTQ and people with HIV/AIDS. Yes, it is an Opinion Piece.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2..._broadway.html

Here is an excerpt:

"But there is another, more specific reason why Pence deserved to be booed in this particular time and place. AIDS hit Broadway hard; the Reagan administration’s cruel negligence toward the crisis resulted in the deaths of some of Broadway’s brightest lights in the 1980s. Eventually, Presidents George H.W. Bush and Bill Clinton took action to stop the spread of AIDS and save the lives of HIV-positive people.

But when Pence ran for Congress in 2000, he ran on a platform of reversing these life-saving advances. As his “Guide to Renewing the American Dream” explained, Pence had serious concerns about the Ryan White CARE Act, a vital federal program that helped provide medication and treatment to low-income and uninsured AIDS patients. “Congress,” Pence wrote, “should support the reauthorization of the Ryan White Care Act only after completion of an audit to ensure that federal dollars [are] no longer being given to organizations that celebrate and encourage the types of behaviors that facilitate the spreading of the HIV virus.”

Pence, in other words, insisted that no federal funds should go to AIDS organizations that accept homosexuality. Instead, he argued: “Resources should be directed toward those institutions which provide assistance to those seeking to change their sexual behavior.” Put simply, Pence wanted to redirect critical HIV funding from AIDS treatment programs to ex-gay conversion therapy—i.e., torture.

Obviously, Pence never achieved his goal of diverting federal AIDS funding to conversion therapy programs. But if he had, thousands of AIDS patients would have undoubtedly died for no good reason. Pence’s policy—which he has never repudiated, despite opportunities to do so—suggested that low-income people should only receive AIDS medication if they renounce their homosexuality and attempt “to change their sexual behavior.” Moreover, treatment centers and programs that fight AIDS should only get federal funds if they condemn homosexuality. These toxic ideas, if enacted, would have shuttered countless clinics and deprived innumerable patients of the drugs they needed to survive."
Thanks, edot. Although there's a lot of slate-splaining going on in that piece, I get the general drift. It makes a lot out of a vague sentence on a website, but perhaps that is what Pence had in mind. Perhaps he objected to the partisan nature of the organizations receiving funding. Or perhaps he really meant conversion therapy, which is just bizarre.

I would only add that if we are to judge Pence for his position in the year 2000, we should also judge our own. For instance, we act like we've always supported gay marriage, when nearly no one did until recently.
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  #843  
Old 20.11.2016, 15:25
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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To my knowledge, the only time Trump has taken the high road was in his remarks about Hillary in his victory speech (and perhaps for meeting with Romney). I'm not holding my breath for the next time this happens.

But, sadly, the US is in a place where many Republican voters are tired of their candidates taking the high road. It sure didn't do GH and GW Bush any good.
I don't think the Republicans have a monopoly on public statements which are insincere, or completely miss the point in a desperate attempt to sling mud or spin an issue.

So far, Trump seems to be making a concerted effort to corner the market. Perhaps he is using a financial market strategy, if he floods the market with enough rubbish with no intrinsic value, will the bottom of the market for gibberish and character assassination fall out?

Kind of an odd way to go about draining the swamp, if you ask me.
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  #844  
Old 20.11.2016, 15:26
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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He has "beliefs" about minorities? Where did this come from? Oh, right, the Clinton campaign, when it needed to scare the hell out of minorities in an attempt to get them to vote for Hillary.
Firstly, I never mentioned anything regarding that. Please address your comments to someone who has.

Secondly, look at any source that you respect for his voting record. His political priorities are very clear for all to see. They're a matter of public record and freely available in the public domain. People do not need a campaign to inform them when such information is available to them.
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  #845  
Old 20.11.2016, 15:32
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Firstly, I never mentioned anything regarding that. Please address your comments to someone who has.

Secondly, look at any source that you respect for his voting record. His political priorities are very clear for all to see. They're a matter of public record and freely available in the public domain. People do not need a campaign to inform them when such information is available to them.
What did you mean by "you reap what you sow"?

He has a racist voting record? Then I'm sure you can cite some of this racism. Fascinating.
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  #846  
Old 20.11.2016, 15:39
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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I don't think the Republicans have a monopoly on public statements which are insincere, or completely miss the point in a desperate attempt to sling mud or spin an issue.

So far, Trump seems to be making a concerted effort to corner the market. Perhaps he is using a financial market strategy, if he floods the market with enough rubbish with no intrinsic value, will the bottom of the market for gibberish and character assassination fall out?

Kind of an odd way to go about draining the swamp, if you ask me.
Agreed. And the Dems play into his hands every time. Or maybe it's more accurate to say that they set the stage long before Trump came along with their accusations of racism against everyone who doesn't support them.

The Left has fallen into this trap of circular thinking. It's seriously eroded their critical thinking and led to Trump's victory earlier this month. Look at Blueangel's accusations that Pence is a racist. The Left is saying "Your a racist. He's a racist. She's a racist. You're all RACISTS!" Why? Because you don't support our policies.

Crying wolf so often is back-firing. What will we do when faced with actual racism, after the accusation has been so thoroughly discredited for partisan political objectives?

The NYT has an interesting piece on how this myopic attitude is unhealthy. (Not to mention illiberal.)
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  #847  
Old 20.11.2016, 15:45
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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He has "beliefs" about minorities? Where did this come from? Oh, right, the Clinton campaign, when it needed to scare the hell out of minorities in an attempt to get them to vote for Hillary.
You won't find me make any reference of such a nature in this thread connecting Pence and racism, for the simple reason that I don't know enough of him to have come to that conclusion.

You're making wild accusations and assumptions again. Boring.

However, I am aware of Pence's voting record and general views regarding the LGBGT community, and take exception to those particular views.

http://time.com/4406337/mike-pence-g...gious-freedom/

If the information in that link is incorrect, by all means feel free to take the matter up with the authors at Time.

But back to Trump's pettiness...

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I watched parts of @nbcsnl Saturday Night Live last night. It is a totally one-sided, biased show - nothing funny at all. Equal time for us?
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...29364986626048
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  #848  
Old 20.11.2016, 15:49
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Look at Blueangel's accusations that Pence is a racist. The Left is saying "Your a racist. He's a racist. She's a racist. You're all RACISTS!" Why? Because you don't support our policies.
Where pray tell?

And for the record... The political party I support in the UK are the Liberal Democrats, not the Labour Party, which is the party which would be considered 'left wing' in the UK.
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  #849  
Old 20.11.2016, 16:03
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Bullshit you are. You've been caught plagiarizing. Not a big sin on an internet forum but doesn't reflect well on you either.
Therefore you do not deny that Trump not taking salary and taking expenses instead will be more expensive for the US.
Thanks!
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  #850  
Old 20.11.2016, 16:25
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Where pray tell?

And for the record... The political party I support in the UK are the Liberal Democrats, not the Labour Party, which is the party which would be considered 'left wing' in the UK.
You don't consider yourself a member of the Left?
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  #851  
Old 20.11.2016, 16:33
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Agreed. And the Dems play into his hands every time. Or maybe it's more accurate to say that they set the stage long before Trump came along with their accusations of racism against everyone who doesn't support them.

The Left has fallen into this trap of circular thinking. It's seriously eroded their critical thinking and led to Trump's victory earlier this month. Look at Blueangel's accusations that Pence is a racist. The Left is saying "Your a racist. He's a racist. She's a racist. You're all RACISTS!" Why? Because you don't support our policies.

Crying wolf so often is back-firing. What will we do when faced with actual racism, after the accusation has been so thoroughly discredited for partisan political objectives?

The NYT has an interesting piece on how this myopic attitude is unhealthy. (Not to mention illiberal.)
I think it is a bit narrow minded to see every single issue purely withing the context of Left/Right, or Dem/Rep.

Any position which proclaims "Everything is racist" is as invalid as the antipode which posits "There is no racism". The truth is somewhere in between. As long as the only function of debate is to discredit the opposing view in such a way that they are consistently represented as nothing short of the Devil incarnate then what results is that there is no way to indivituate, evaluate, and correct for an unjust state of affairs because it pulls the rug out from underneath the very point of language. Once you've achieved this goal, it is only a short step to violence and the subsequent anhillation of lives.

You've been on at BlueAngel for the "you reap what you sow" comment. Correct me if I am wrong BlueAngel, but I took your initial comment to mean that Pence has as much right to a tolerant audience as his voting record and public statements have shown his own level of tolerance indicate. She did not claim he is a racist. If anything her claim is that Pence isn't particularly pluralist.

To misconstruct the other's statements to be an argument which you have a pat answer for is not discourse.

It is the antidiscourse which is the problem, both here on EF, in the US, and the ROW as a general trend.
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  #852  
Old 20.11.2016, 16:36
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Thanks, edot. Although there's a lot of slate-splaining going on in that piece, I get the general drift. It makes a lot out of a vague sentence on a website, but perhaps that is what Pence had in mind. Perhaps he objected to the partisan nature of the organizations receiving funding. Or perhaps he really meant conversion therapy, which is just bizarre.

I would only add that if we are to judge Pence for his position in the year 2000, we should also judge our own. For instance, we act like we've always supported gay marriage, when nearly no one did until recently.
I seriously doubt the man's position has changed. Mine hasn't since the late 1980's.

About 25 years ago, in one of my stints to grad school, i was doing research on reactions to HIV test results. One of my colleagues was gay.

He made a point of telling me he was gay, and why accepting and acknowledging this was important. I simply never considered that while it was acceptable for straight people to talk about their families and relationships, it was not widely accepted if you were gay/lesbian. So not so much for or against marriage equality, but not recognizing it was even an issue - the idea that people can share a life for many years and then, have no standing in the face of illness, death.

I believe that marriage is a civil union and regardless of the gender of partners, it needs to be recognized as such.
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  #853  
Old 20.11.2016, 16:44
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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I seriously doubt the man's position has changed. Mine hasn't since the late 1980's.

About 25 years ago, in one of my stints to grad school, i was doing research on reactions to HIV test results. One of my colleagues was gay.

He made a point of telling me he was gay, and why accepting and acknowledging this was important. I simply never considered that while it was acceptable for straight people to talk about their families and relationships, it was not widely accepted if you were gay/lesbian. So not so much for or against marriage equality, but not recognizing it was even an issue - the idea that people can share a life for many years and then, have no standing in the face of illness, death.

I believe that marriage is a civil union and regardless of the gender of partners, it needs to be recognized as such.
Are you saying that you supported gay marriage in the 1980s?

Last edited by NomadAmericano; 20.11.2016 at 17:00.
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  #854  
Old 20.11.2016, 16:47
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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I think it is a bit narrow minded to see every single issue purely withing the context of Left/Right, or Dem/Rep.

Any position which proclaims "Everything is racist" is as invalid as the antipode which posits "There is no racism". The truth is somewhere in between. As long as the only function of debate is to discredit the opposing view in such a way that they are consistently represented as nothing short of the Devil incarnate then what results is that there is no way to indivituate, evaluate, and correct for an unjust state of affairs because it pulls the rug out from underneath the very point of language. Once you've achieved this goal, it is only a short step to violence and the subsequent anhillation of lives.

You've been on at BlueAngel for the "you reap what you sow" comment. Correct me if I am wrong BlueAngel, but I took your initial comment to mean that Pence has as much right to a tolerant audience as his voting record and public statements have shown his own level of tolerance indicate. She did not claim he is a racist. If anything her claim is that Pence isn't particularly pluralist.

To misconstruct the other's statements to be an argument which you have a pat answer for is not discourse.

It is the antidiscourse which is the problem, both here on EF, in the US, and the ROW as a general trend.
You make a fair point about blueangel. I'm willing to edit that post of mine if I am mistaken. But as the lecture that Pence received was (mostly) about racial minorities, and blueangel follows that up with her reference to Pence reaping what he sows and his beliefs on such matters, I think it was reasonable to interpret that comment as referencing Pence's attitude toward racial minorities. But I see that you interpreted her comments differently.

Blueangel aside, I think my point stands about the over-use, and partisan use, of the accusation of racism is illiberal and harmful, both to the Left, society at large, and, ultimately, to those who suffer real racism and are unable to draw attention to it because of the debasement of the language regarding racism.

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  #855  
Old 20.11.2016, 17:03
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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You make a fair point about blueangel. I'm willing to edit that post of mine if I am mistaken. But as the lecture that Pence received was (mostly) about racial minorities, and blueangel follows that up with her reference to Pence reaping what he sows and his beliefs on such matters, I think it was reasonable to interpret that comment as referencing Pence's attitude toward racial minorities. And I see that you interpreted her comments differently.
Sorry if this sounds like I am lecturing here, to a certain extent I am.

Simple question:

Do you not see a problem with editing your posting so that it would subsequently appear that you had not made a false accusation?

Isn't that just a little bit dishonest?

I much prefer that you add a new post along the lines "I stand corrected, I thought you were representing a different position".

Similarly, if Pence voted to defund HIV research because he is convinced that gays are abhorrent to God (or whatever combination of words he can think of to present the same disgusting sentiment), then he needs to grow a pair and own that position.

In the end, neither of us know exactly what Blueangel meant until we ask for, and receive, an explanation. Brushes and tar are expensive... I'd rather wait to see where the tar really needs to go before I get into the whole task, as this means that I may save the effort of having to clean the brush.
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  #856  
Old 20.11.2016, 17:09
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You supported gay marriage in the 1980s?
I never understood why people couldn't just live together in a civil union regardless of gender. So the idea of marriage equality always made sense. I knew a lot of gay couples - Folks in the movie biz, and even at geek central where I worked. One of my colleagues died of AIDS just when people were starting to talk about it. I was in my 20's/30's in the 1980's.
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Old 20.11.2016, 17:15
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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The statement is, IMO, quite respectful. Mr Dixon asks the audience not to boo. And credit to Pence, he listened respectfully.
The content of the prepared statement is very good, dare I say even professional (?) If they took a full page ad in the NYT and printed it, that would be great. But when Pence is out on the town relaxing with his family, to single him out in the theatre and lecture him is poor taste. If Obama was dining in a restaurant and the staff came out and read a prepared speech to him in front of his family and the other diners about how Obamacare premiums are financially hurting them and their families, I would find that uncalled for as well.

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they were respectful enough. and yes, Pence did listen, so good for him. It's Trump who is proving to be a snowflake.
Trump isn't a snowfalke, he's a drama queen. That's how he got elected
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Old 20.11.2016, 17:24
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Sorry if this sounds like I am lecturing here, to a certain extent I am.

Simple question:

Do you not see a problem with editing your posting so that it would subsequently appear that you had not made a false accusation?

Isn't that just a little bit dishonest?

I much prefer that you add a new post along the lines "I stand corrected, I thought you were representing a different position".

Similarly, if Pence voted to defund HIV research because he is convinced that gays are abhorrent to God (or whatever combination of words he can think of to present the same disgusting sentiment), then he needs to grow a pair and own that position.

In the end, neither of us know exactly what Blueangel meant until we ask for, and receive, an explanation. Brushes and tar are expensive... I'd rather wait to see where the tar really needs to go before I get into the whole task, as this means that I may save the effort of having to clean the brush.
Yes, I would say that I now understand what she meant. That works best.

No, I don't think it would be dishonest to edit my post so long as I acknowledge that I've edited it. If she says I misrepresented her, and she's not merely dodging now that her argument isn't a very good one, then I am glad to correct the record by removing the reference to her. Citing her was incidental to my point anyway.

Likewise, she should consider being more precise.

And I'll repeat: We judge Pence based on our own biases. If he believes homosexuality is sinful, then that is not an extremist position. I disagree with it, but it is ridiculous to call main-line Christianity extremist. Then we're all basically extremists, Christian or not, because we may have zigged instead of zagged in relation to whatever cause of the day is being heralded at any given time.

And we also have to keep in mind the political context here. Political patronage results in taxpayers funding partisan political groups. I object to this whether the funding is to Left, Right, In-Between or Whatever, as it is an illegitimate and corrupt use of government funds. Pence is surely aware of this as well, and it is a bit rich for us to condemn him for not wanting to fund the Left.

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Old 20.11.2016, 17:31
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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I never understood why people couldn't just live together in a civil union regardless of gender. So the idea of marriage equality always made sense. I knew a lot of gay couples - Folks in the movie biz, and even at geek central where I worked. One of my colleagues died of AIDS just when people were starting to talk about it. I was in my 20's/30's in the 1980's.
I'm sorry, edot, I'm not trying to be obtuse. You'll recall that my point is that many of us (not you; I'm speaking generally) rush to condemn people's position on gay rights while simultaneously never acknowledging that we ourselves are mostly Johnny-come-lately's. This is most evident in support for gay marriage, where nearly no one outside of some fringe academics where arguing for gay marriage prior to very recent history.

This is why I followed-up on your post about your experiences in the 1980s. I was genuinely curious if you supported gay marriage back then.

FWIW, I don't think the government should be involved in any marriage laws whatsoever.
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Old 20.11.2016, 17:48
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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And I'll repeat: We judge Pence based on our own biases. If he believes homosexuality is sinful, then that is not an extremist position. I disagree with it, but it is ridiculous to call main-line Christianity extremist. Then we're all basically extremists, Christian or not, because we may have zigged instead of zagged in relation to whatever cause of the day is being heralded at any given time.
This is precisely where we disagree.

He can believe what he wants - in his home, in his church, with his friends at the bar. I will be the first to defend his right to his religious beliefs.

However, we are not in a theocracy (thank God, if you allow me the pun!) and so I see no reason why his religious beliefs, or anyone's for that matter, should have an influence, or be mentioned at all, as relevant to policy-making in a rational country where there is a rule of law. I do have a problem when anyone's religious beliefs impair my options.

I do not impair anyone with my religious beliefs, in fact, I very rarely even mention them at all. Because they are not, nor should be, relevant or limiting to others.
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