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View Poll Results: Will Trump be a good President?
Yes 35 28.00%
No 90 72.00%
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  #861  
Old 20.11.2016, 18:09
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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The content of the prepared statement is very good, dare I say even professional (?) If they took a full page ad in the NYT and printed it, that would be great. But when Pence is out on the town relaxing with his family, to single him out in the theatre and lecture him is poor taste.
And I found it fully in keeping with the spirit of the play, and with the spirit of the history behind the play.

Having caught the nation's imagination, the play has become something of a national 'teaching moment'. 'Hamilton' is a play with a powerful message, it is far more than mere entertainment. Underscoring that message as the cast did that night was IMO wholly appropriate.

'Hamilton' is not your average evening of relaxing theater. It is not only the story of revolution, but also a revolutionary art form. It is a play where ideas take center stage, where debate over ideas, beliefs, passions is the central driving narrative. Where we remember why we should be passionate about ideas, about our political beliefs, why we need to take risks. One watches the play and walks home energized - and frankly, proud to be an American. Yes, even today.

The second act is the story of how we decided what sort of country we wanted to be and what sort of government we needed to facilitate that idea. That we now might be on the verge of re-defining America, that we are having arguments as passionate, holding views as diametrically opposed to one another, as the founding fathers did way back then, is a symmetry that cannot be lost on anyone in the theater watching the play.

Mr Pence is a public figure, he was in a public place. Wherever he goes he will need to be prepared to hear many differing viewpoints. And, as above, to his credit he handled it well.

I hope that the brilliance of 'Hamilton' might have some resonance, that he might reflect on founding fathers' vision of what it meant, and what it took, to 'make America great' in the first place.

---

Seriously folks - go and see the play!
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  #862  
Old 20.11.2016, 18:11
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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I'm sorry, edot, I'm not trying to be obtuse. You'll recall that my point is that many of us (not you; I'm speaking generally) rush to condemn people's position on gay rights while simultaneously never acknowledging that we ourselves are mostly Johnny-come-lately's. This is most evident in support for gay marriage, where nearly no one outside of some fringe academics where arguing for gay marriage prior to very recent history.

This is why I followed-up on your post about your experiences in the 1980s. I was genuinely curious if you supported gay marriage back then.

FWIW, I don't think the government should be involved in any marriage laws whatsoever.
Not a problem. I've always been part of that fringe anyway.
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  #863  
Old 20.11.2016, 18:24
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This is precisely where we disagree.

He can believe what he wants - in his home, in his church, with his friends at the bar. I will be the first to defend his right to his religious beliefs.

However, we are not in a theocracy (thank God, if you allow me the pun!) and so I see no reason why his religious beliefs, or anyone's for that matter, should have an influence, or be mentioned at all, as relevant to policy-making in a rational country where there is a rule of law. I do have a problem when anyone's religious beliefs impair my options.

I do not impair anyone with my religious beliefs, in fact, I very rarely even mention them at all. Because they are not, nor should be, relevant or limiting to others.
What about when people's non-religious beliefs impair your options? What I hear you saying is that Pence can be Christian as long as he never acts on his Christian beliefs. Basically, as long as he stays in the closet.

I find this inconsistent with your belief that abortion should be paid for by taxpayers. (Uh-oh, thread-crossing!) You are in effect pushing your beliefs on those who don't believe, are you not?

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And I found it fully in keeping with the spirit of the play, and with the spirit of the history behind the play.

Having caught the nation's imagination, the play has become something of a national 'teaching moment'. 'Hamilton' is a play with a powerful message, it is far more than mere entertainment. Underscoring that message as the cast did that night was IMO wholly appropriate.

'Hamilton' is not your average evening of relaxing theater. It is not only the story of revolution, but also a revolutionary art form. It is a play where ideas take center stage, where debate over ideas, beliefs, passions is the central driving narrative. Where we remember why we should be passionate about ideas, about our political beliefs, why we need to take risks. One watches the play and walks home energized - and frankly, proud to be an American. Yes, even today.

The second act is the story of how we decided what sort of country we wanted to be and what sort of government we needed to facilitate that idea. That we now might be on the verge of re-defining America, that we are having arguments as passionate, holding views as diametrically opposed to one another, as the founding fathers did way back then, is a symmetry that cannot be lost on anyone in the theater watching the play.

Mr Pence is a public figure, he was in a public place. Wherever he goes he will need to be prepared to hear many differing viewpoints. And, as above, to his credit he handled it well.

I hope that the brilliance of 'Hamilton' might have some resonance, that he might reflect on founding fathers' vision of what it meant, and what it took, to 'make America great' in the first place.

---

Seriously folks - go and see the play!
Hamilton has always been one of my favorite founders. Gouverneur Morris was pretty cool too.

Pence says that he wasn't offended by the Hamilton cast. "

"Pence noted when he arrived at the show, he heard a few boos and some cheers.

"And I nudged my kids and reminded them, that's what freedom sounds like," Pence said."

Last edited by 3Wishes; 20.11.2016 at 19:18.
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  #864  
Old 20.11.2016, 18:45
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

I'm sorry, but I feel completely sick since he was elected.

Can hardly work or focus on bringing my child up within the World that existed until just a few weeks ago.

Does anyone have the no. of a help-line?
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  #865  
Old 20.11.2016, 18:56
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Pence says that he wasn't offended by the Hamilton cast. "

"Pence noted when he arrived at the show, he heard a few boos and some cheers.

"And I nudged my kids and reminded them, that's what freedom sounds like," Pence said."
Ok, so now I have serious doubts about Pence.

He hasn't even started the new job and he's already making public statements which make the new boss look like a dickhead.

Never a good idea, particularly when the new boss is a dickhead!
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  #866  
Old 20.11.2016, 18:58
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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I'm sorry, but I feel completely sick since he was elected.

Can hardly work or focus on bringing my child up within the World that existed until just a few weeks ago.

Does anyone have the no. of a help-line?
I don't, but you're not alone. Calls to suicide help lines appear to have increased in urban areas since the election. I read a blog written by a NYC psychiatrist in a public hospital and she also described a big uptick in calls to their help lines.
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  #867  
Old 20.11.2016, 19:12
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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I don't, but you're not alone. Calls to suicide help lines appear to have increased in urban areas since the election. I read a blog written by a NYC psychiatrist in a public hospital and she also described a big uptick in calls to their help lines.
Am included in several of his things so understand that
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  #868  
Old 20.11.2016, 19:32
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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What about when people's non-religious beliefs impair your options? What I hear you saying is that Pence can be Christian as long as he never acts on his Christian beliefs. Basically, as long as he stays in the closet.
He does not have to stay in the closet. But if he attempts to enforce his religious beliefs on others by creating laws then the implication is that his beliefs are not founded on a strong basis and his beliefs are not shared by the (many?) people who he wants to control by law.

State and religion should be kept separate; once you start creating laws that are based on one sects religious beliefs then you risk creating additional divisions in society which can have unintended effects.
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  #869  
Old 20.11.2016, 19:33
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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You don't consider yourself a member of the Left?
As I keep saying, to the point that I'm bored of having to explain it, you come from a predominantly two party system. The UK has a multi-party system, as has much of Europe. In the UK, 'leftist' would most likely be a term used for people like the SWP, who are so far to the left that they aren't allowed to be members of the Labour Party. The Labour Party (who are the main opposition party) are further left than my belief system.

In US politics, I'd have been solidly with Bernie, based upon his voting record and experience in public office.

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You've been on at BlueAngel for the "you reap what you sow" comment. Correct me if I am wrong BlueAngel, but I took your initial comment to mean that Pence has as much right to a tolerant audience as his voting record and public statements have shown his own level of tolerance indicate. She did not claim he is a racist. If anything her claim is that Pence isn't particularly pluralist.
Thank you JagWaugh. You're absolutely correct in your assessment.

I honestly don't know enough about Pence yet, to have a full grasp of all his views, but I am aware of his views towards the LGBTG community. As someone who spent her own first wedding anniversary back in 1995, as the photographer for my friend's Anglican wedding to her wife, I find Pence's views to be primitive.

Gay people have always been a part of my life from being a child. My nan was the pianist for a local theatre company, and Saturday afternoons at her house were afternoon tea for her theater friends (gay and otherwise) whilst she babysat me and my 12 cousins. In light of this, it wasn't a surprise to me that a theatre crowd might seize the opportunity to make their point, and to Pence's credit (as meloncollie has already said) he took it well and stayed for the performance.


Apologies to anyone who notices that I sometimes slip up with LGBTG when I'm typing too fast. It was so much easier when it was LGBT, but now that the last letter has been added, I keep confusing it with MG BGT
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Old 20.11.2016, 20:19
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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What about when people's non-religious beliefs impair your options? What I hear you saying is that Pence can be Christian as long as he never acts on his Christian beliefs. Basically, as long as he stays in the closet.

I find this inconsistent with your belief that abortion should be paid for by taxpayers. (Uh-oh, thread-crossing!) You are in effect pushing your beliefs on those who don't believe, are you not?
I am starting to feel like groundhog day
I said this before, but I believe that access to healthcare is a right for all, and I believe that one way to ensure that as many as possible have access to care regardless of their financial situation is through the collective contribution of tax-paying citizens. So yes, I believe healthcare should be government-funded via taxpayer money.

I am not pushing my beliefs on anyone because I am not forcing anyone to have any care or procedure they do not want to have. It is not up to me to convince anyone to have a medical procedure (including the A one). I am not a doctor. I will however do my best to guarantee and preserve the right to have options, always.

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He does not have to stay in the closet. But if he attempts to enforce his religious beliefs on others by creating laws then the implication is that his beliefs are not founded on a strong basis and his beliefs are not shared by the (many?) people who he wants to control by law.

State and religion should be kept separate; once you start creating laws that are based on one sects religious beliefs then you risk creating additional divisions in society which can have unintended effects.
As he said.
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  #871  
Old 20.11.2016, 21:05
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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I am not pushing my beliefs on anyone because I am not forcing anyone to have any care or procedure they do not want to have.
Yes, but the point is that because you believe it is right, you are okay with forcing others to pay for what they believe is not right.

With that position, it's hard to have your complaints taken seriously when the other side has the upper hand and uses its power to impose their beliefs on you, just as you would on them.
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  #872  
Old 20.11.2016, 21:07
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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He does not have to stay in the closet. But if he attempts to enforce his religious beliefs on others by creating laws then the implication is that his beliefs are not founded on a strong basis and his beliefs are not shared by the (many?) people who he wants to control by law.

State and religion should be kept separate; once you start creating laws that are based on one sects religious beliefs then you risk creating additional divisions in society which can have unintended effects.
So if you determine that a belief is religious, then it cannot be expressed in the law (I generally agree with this). But, if you determine that a belief is non-religious, then it can be expressed in the law, e.g., BokerTov's position on forcing people to fund abortion.
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  #873  
Old 20.11.2016, 21:07
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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I'm sorry, but I feel completely sick since he was elected.

Can hardly work or focus on bringing my child up within the World that existed until just a few weeks ago.

Does anyone have the no. of a help-line?
Interesting. I've read a few blogs from writers based in Cairo, Gaza and elsewhere who have said pretty much the opposite.

Good job we all live in Switzerland, eh?
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  #874  
Old 20.11.2016, 21:12
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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  #875  
Old 20.11.2016, 21:13
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Old 20.11.2016, 21:14
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Yes, but the point is that because you believe it is right, you are okay with forcing others to pay for what they believe is not right.

With that position, it's hard to have your complaints taken seriously when the other side has the upper hand and uses its power to impose their beliefs on you, just as you would on them.
Ok, so lets take the abortion part out of the equation. Why should people who are of normal body mass be forced to finance the medical treatment of people who are overweight, or people who drastically undernourish themselves?

Is your objection moral, or financial?
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Old 20.11.2016, 21:14
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Old 20.11.2016, 21:17
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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I'm sorry, but I feel completely sick since he was elected.

Can hardly work or focus on bringing my child up within the World that existed until just a few weeks ago.

Does anyone have the no. of a help-line?
Maybe this can cheer you up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBG4vxi9mtk
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Old 20.11.2016, 21:37
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Ok, so lets take the abortion part out of the equation. Why should people who are of normal body mass be forced to finance the medical treatment of people who are overweight, or people who drastically undernourish themselves?

Is your objection moral, or financial?
I don't know of any religions (or secular groups) that object to medical treatment for conditions related to being overweight or those with eating disorders. Those examples don't hold for the abortion issue, where many people believe (on religious or humanist grounds) that it is murder to end the life of the unborn.

I object to them being forced to pay for abortions against their beliefs. Doing so is very illiberal.

And I don't think it is extremist for Pence or other elected officials to support legislation that bans taxpayer funding of abortion, late-term abortions or discriminatory abortions.
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Old 21.11.2016, 01:33
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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So if you determine that a belief is religious, then it cannot be expressed in the law (I generally agree with this). But, if you determine that a belief is non-religious, then it can be expressed in the law, e.g., BokerTov's position on forcing people to fund abortion.
It is naive to assume all of our taxes will be spent on on topics we support, example;
  • pacifists pay for the military
  • childless couples pay for education
  • fit people pay for the sick
  • people who do not own cars pay for the roads
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