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View Poll Results: Italian referendum, Yes, No, etc.
Yes 8 36.36%
No 4 18.18%
I don't know 5 22.73%
Dogs of Yulin 6 27.27%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 22. You may not vote on this poll

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  #21  
Old 17.11.2016, 21:26
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Re: Out with the old, in with the new.

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Genuine question, why not just reduce the number of seats in both houses, instead of changing to one house? Changing to one house seems to leave more opportunity for one party to run amok, although it could potentially reduce support staff costs. Where's the check and balance?
I believe the intent is to reduce the back-and-forth between senate and house, which would still occur if you have two reduced-in-size chambers. I hear your checks and balances comment, it is a valid point. I think you can preserve checks and balances with a unilateral chamber and executive-senate-other bodies interaction, while increasing the efficiency.

I should mention that the Senate is not completely disappearing (actually, Renzi's original proposal was to scrap it entirely) but it will be greatly reduced and will have different functions than the (unicameral) Parliament. The unicameral Parliament would still have the last word on legislation, but the "reduced" Senate would be an intermediary between the state and the regions, among other functions.

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Did/will you vote?

Tom
Of course I am voting. I called the Embassy today because I still have not received my papers though (!!!).

Although I live abroad, I have been in the Italian Residents Abroad registry since I left, and I have updated my info/ subscription every time I moved cities/countries.

I am very involved with Italy and the Italian communities, abroad as well as in my hometown (when there). I am very proud to be Italian and I personally believe that voting is not only my right, but my duty as a citizen.
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  #22  
Old 17.11.2016, 21:57
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Re: Out with the old, in with the new.

I wonder what would happen to the little guys if the EU explodes? Germany, France, the UK, Poland, CH and maybe Austria, they can look after themselves on their own without a problem, not too sure about the latins though, Italy and Spain could well go down the U-bend. The nordics like Denmark, Sweden, Finnland, iceland would they get together in a nordic-bund like thing? And would it leave Germany as de-facto the European superpower?
But what would happen to the little guys…?
If you drive down the coast road to White Rocks and Pembroke here on Malta, you see signs, you see these signs all over the country.
„This road/Restauration/Tunnel/facillity/public convenience is a project partially financed by the EU!“ However if you read the small print you will find:
„87% Eu funds,“ that is technically partially financed but hey ho! Tomato-Tomayto.
It would seem that most of the EU´s „little brothers“ suckle on the EUdder far over the capabilities of their own GDP and if the EU goes Tango Uniform I doubt they will be able to survive as sovereign states in the form they enjoy now. Yugoslavia once shattered into pieces like a broken plate, now they are just about holding their shit together because of the EU carrot, without that we could well see civil war breaking out in places we would never have dreamed about.
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  #23  
Old 17.11.2016, 23:03
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Re: Out with the old, in with the new.

Regarding the senate, the big change is that the people will only elect 1/3, and the other 2/3 elect themselves.

Perhaps my wife should look into getting Italian citizenship so she can vote (her mother was Italian until she married a Swiss).

Tom
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  #24  
Old 17.11.2016, 23:17
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Re: Out with the old, in with the new.

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Those who are in favor of a YES vote mostly say that with abolishing the bicameral structure, one avoids the ping-pong between Senate and House, saving time and supposedly approving laws much faster. Savings from reducing the number of politicians in a single chamber, etc. etc.
Like most other Europeans do I not really care of follow Italian politics, but I assume that the two chambers work the same way they do in most parts of the EU and even CH: One is the parliament, the other a representation of the provinces, right?

I think having two is pretty good even though it slows things down - at least in Germany is that second chamber a very healthy level of independent control... MPs usually follow their party lines no matter what... there are far too many laws to follow up on all of them, so most of the time they simply do as they are told. Sad but true. A province leader might be from the same party, but has much stronger interest in the immediate effects of a law on his part of the country. And will lobby for it. So you cannot as easily run over concerns.

If they don't do so in Italy, here is how it works in Germany as a measure to speed things up: Certain areas of politics are done in one chamber, say military issues, foreign policies,... but others, say tax law will be discussed in both. So you got the speed where you need it and the two chamber control in the right moments as well.
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  #25  
Old 17.11.2016, 23:34
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Re: Out with the old, in with the new.

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Regarding the senate, the big change is that the people will only elect 1/3, and the other 2/3 elect themselves.
Nope. People will not elect (directly) senators. From Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italia...ferendum,_2016)
  • Composition of the Senate
  • 95 senators are elected by the Regional Councils and by the Councils of the Autonomous Provinces of Trento and Bolzano. In each Region and Autonomous Province, one senator must be elected from among the mayors of the respective territories; the remaining senators must be elected from among the members of the Councils themselves.
  • 5 senators are appointed by the President of Italy for a seven-year term.
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  #26  
Old 17.11.2016, 23:46
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Re: Out with the old, in with the new.

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Nope. People will not elect (directly) senators.
Even worse.

Sounds like Renzi wants to out Berlusconi Berlusconi!

Tom
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  #27  
Old 18.11.2016, 00:01
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Re: Out with the old, in with the new.

I'm gonna vote no. Not because of Renzi or anything, but because they want to make the election of the senate an indirect process which only serves the parties. The parties will be able to influence and choose whoever they want from the top, while the senate should be a representation of the regions not of national politics. I'm for more federalism and this is going in the wrong direction. Also the regional councils are a collection of trash, why would someone even want them to be senators.
Then there's also the problem of mayors being part-time senators, that can't work.
And the 5 senators appointed by the president? what are they, the council of the crown? It doesn't make sense.

The senate should work like the lower house in Switzerland, and the people should be able to elect them by putting crosses on the names directly (or numbers if they dared go with a more modern election system).

By the way even if the bomber leaves the gov't he will be governing offstage since he's still the boss of the PD.
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  #28  
Old 18.11.2016, 09:59
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Re: Out with the old, in with the new.

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I'm gonna vote no. Not because of Renzi or anything, but because they want to make the election of the senate an indirect process which only serves the parties.
IMO Berlusconi was close to a catastrophe, yet he got elected again, and again. That doesn't sound like Italian voters really cared about results.

With that said: To what extent did the current process serve the country? And how would giving voters more tasks and power improve on that?
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  #29  
Old 18.11.2016, 15:44
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Re: Out with the old, in with the new.

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The only person that I know in favor of a Yes doesn't like Renzi!

Tom
For a question of principle, I would never vote left, therefore I would never vote for PD (Renzi's party). That being said, compared to many previous prime ministers, I think he is one of the best, even though I disagree with him on some issues. In just 2 years he was able to pass reforms that Berlusconi wasn't capable to do so in 20 years. Renzi even had the balls to say "f@$k you" to the old socialist clods of his own party in order to try to move the country forward.

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Well, if they vote Yes, their votes will have even less meaning in the future.

Tom
Not true in my opinion. People will still be voting for the regional council and mayors, who in turn some of themselves will be the senators. I would rather prefer to vote directly, but that would mean to wait another 10 years or so to come up with another reform. The simple fact that 200 senators will be eliminated and that there won't be a ping pong anymore are reasons enough to disclaim the direct election of the senate.

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Genuine question, why not just reduce the number of seats in both houses, instead of changing to one house? Changing to one house seems to leave more opportunity for one party to run amok, although it could potentially reduce support staff costs. Where's the check and balance?
You have a fair point. The problem is that Italy is stuck in the mud for the last 20 years and denying this reform would mean staying with the current chamber-senate problem for another 10 years. I am not 100% sure that this current reform will bring the country to a better position, however staying as it is now is much worse.

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Regarding the senate, the big change is that the people will only elect 1/3, and the other 2/3 elect themselves.

Perhaps my wife should look into getting Italian citizenship so she can vote (her mother was Italian until she married a Swiss).

Tom
Not entirely true. Senators will be chosen among the mayors and counselors of your region. Therefore they (senators) would have received your vote priorly.

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Like most other Europeans do I not really care of follow Italian politics, but I assume that the two chambers work the same way they do in most parts of the EU and even CH: One is the parliament, the other a representation of the provinces, right?

I think having two is pretty good even though it slows things down - at least in Germany is that second chamber a very healthy level of independent control... MPs usually follow their party lines no matter what... there are far too many laws to follow up on all of them, so most of the time they simply do as they are told. Sad but true. A province leader might be from the same party, but has much stronger interest in the immediate effects of a law on his part of the country. And will lobby for it. So you cannot as easily run over concerns.

If they don't do so in Italy, here is how it works in Germany as a measure to speed things up: Certain areas of politics are done in one chamber, say military issues, foreign policies,... but others, say tax law will be discussed in both. So you got the speed where you need it and the two chamber control in the right moments as well.
Well, that's exactly the main point of change in the reform! As it is now the senate vote for the same things as the chamber, back and forth, over and over again. So Renzi wants it to be similar to Germany and France.

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I'm gonna vote no. Not because of Renzi or anything, but because they want to make the election of the senate an indirect process which only serves the parties. The parties will be able to influence and choose whoever they want from the top, while the senate should be a representation of the regions not of national politics. I'm for more federalism and this is going in the wrong direction. Also the regional councils are a collection of trash, why would someone even want them to be senators.

I agree with you on the federalism issue. However, in the parliamentarian system, you already don't vote directly for the most important position: prime minister. This reform is a matter of a trade-off: is it better to stay it is? I don't think so.

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Then there's also the problem of mayors being part-time senators, that can't work.
What's the problem? It works like this in France.

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And the 5 senators appointed by the president? what are they, the council of the crown? It doesn't make sense.

Agree, but what about the senators for life? Isn't it the same shit?

The senate should work like the lower house in Switzerland, and the people should be able to elect them by putting crosses on the names directly (or numbers if they dared go with a more modern election system).

By the way even if the bomber leaves the gov't he will be governing offstage since he's still the boss of the PD.
Agree, but what about the senators for life? Isn't it the same shit?

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IMO Berlusconi was close to a catastrophe, yet he got elected again, and again. That doesn't sound like Italian voters really cared about results.

With that said: To what extent did the current process serve the country? And how would giving voters more tasks and power improve on that?
That's the shit about the parliamentary system, politicians choose the leader, not yourself. If you have a good political class, such as that of Germany, then it's not a problem, but in Italy...
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  #30  
Old 18.11.2016, 16:57
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Re: Out with the old, in with the new.

Interesting article:

http://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/20...-vs-populists/
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  #31  
Old 18.11.2016, 17:12
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Re: Out with the old, in with the new.

There i was thinking this post was all about Tom's tableware collection.....
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  #32  
Old 18.11.2016, 20:40
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Re: Out with the old, in with the new.

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Then there's also the problem of mayors being part-time senators, that can't work.
Actually, it is believed this is among the mostest majorest reasons why the Swiss system works so well. Have "real people" run the system as far up as is doable, those who take their fingers out of their behinds rather than some removed politician who doesn't even know or care what a hammer is.
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  #33  
Old 18.11.2016, 21:16
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Re: Out with the old, in with the new.

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For a question of principle, I would never vote left, therefore I would never vote for PD (Renzi's party).
The Renzi side is hardly left (for italian standards), so I'm not sure voting PD is leftist anymore, unless he and his crowd are purged.
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With that said: To what extent did the current process serve the country? And how would giving voters more tasks and power improve on that?
If they are elected directly by people in their region they might be held more accountable, and if not, the fact that it's the people choosing them helps ease tensions and shifts responsability on the voters (the narrative about the bad politicians and the people not being represented is omnipresent and is not constructive). I mean right know it's always vote one party and its leader or the other, never about the people that will actually do the job.
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Actually, it is believed this is among the mostest majorest reasons why the Swiss system works so well. Have "real people" run the system as far up as is doable, those who take their fingers out of their behinds rather than some removed politician who doesn't even know or care what a hammer is.
Yes, militia politicians, I don't think italians ever liked the concept. But I don't see mayors of big cities also being parliamentarians even in CH. And by the way here the municipal gov't is run by a group of people, all elected. In italy it's the mayor that chooses the other members of the junta and runs the house, they have more responsability.
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Agree, but what about the senators for life? Isn't it the same shit?
True, but since they want to reform the system why keep this random thing? Interestingly, the only senator I know and like is elena cattaneo, who is a senator for life.
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I am not 100% sure that this current reform will bring the country to a better position, however staying as it is now is much worse.
I agree, that's what actually makes the decision difficult. Of course once accepted it will be 30 years before another reform comes by, while if refused the wait might be 5-10 years... don't know...
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  #34  
Old 03.12.2016, 14:50
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Re: Out with the old, in with the new.

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  #35  
Old 03.12.2016, 14:52
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Re: Out with the old, in with the new.



Tom
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  #36  
Old 03.12.2016, 16:52
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Re: Out with the old, in with the new.

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Tom
That's disgusting - no matter what.
However, it's not logic is it?! This can't be from Renzo's party .... and it wouldn't come from Grillos either - would it?! So who plasters this all over?
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  #37  
Old 03.12.2016, 20:03
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Re: Out with the old, in with the new.

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That's disgusting - no matter what.
However, it's not logic is it?! This can't be from Renzo's party .... and it wouldn't come from Grillos either - would it?! So who plasters this all over?
Any one of the many left wing and right wing parties who favor a NO, I would think.

Tom
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  #38  
Old 03.12.2016, 23:05
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Re: Out with the old, in with the new.



Tom
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  #39  
Old 03.12.2016, 23:08
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Re: Out with the old, in with the new.

It'll be NO. And Hofer will win in Austria too, rounding off a stupendous 2016.

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  #40  
Old 03.12.2016, 23:31
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Re: Out with the old, in with the new.

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Any one of the many left wing and right wing parties who favor a NO, I would think.

Tom
Hmmm, as we know populists only read headlines and look at pictures (anything else is too hard on the brain) so they will vote yes?

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Tom
The Italians have a funny way of canvassing ..... here again it depends who you think the arse is. LOL. I'm beginning to like it as it is so confusing that evereyone is thrown back on making his/her decisions again.
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