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  #41  
Old 20.11.2016, 19:30
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Any stats on how many are physically unable to kill themselves? Try not to plagiarize this time!
Have you looked up the meaning of the word "plagiarize"? You used the same term in the other thread this morning. I may be mistaken, but I think the phrase you intended to use is "make unsubstantiated claims".
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  #42  
Old 20.11.2016, 19:33
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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If it weren't for the legal framework I would be faced with the choice of going more or less straight from the diagnosis to a bridge, gunshop, railway perron, and confronting a great many more people with the consequences of my personal choice because I would be unable to find anyone willing to help me when the time comes because they might be tried for murder.
You missed buses
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  #43  
Old 20.11.2016, 19:34
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What Dignitas and Exit do isn't murder. Certainly not legally, that is the whole point of the exercise for everyone other than the patient. If I discover that I have some terminal disease which has a final stage which I am not willing to face, or force my family to also suffer through then regardless of which term you use to describe what Exit and Dignitas do, it is my choice, and mine alone (or do you wish to retract your earlier statement where you wrote "Just do it if that's what you want. But people need validation for all of their actions nowadays... ". I don't need your validation.

What I do need is to know that if I so choose I can secure the aid of someone to help me to this end, and to know that they will not be liable to prosecution for murder.

If it weren't for the legal framework I would be faced with the choice of going more or less straight from the diagnosis to a bridge, gunshop, railway perron, and confronting a great many more people with the consequences of my personal choice because I would be unable to find anyone willing to help me when the time comes because they might be tried for murder.

The simplistic scenario you present may be all you can imagine. It does not represent the whole situation.

iirc Dignitas helps people from outside Switzerland, Exit doesn't. What difference does it make to you which piece of rock the patient comes from?

As to Belgium, it isn't a slippery slope at all. You are mixing apples with oranges.

Actually, I don't really care if it's legal in Switzerland or not. I was endulging marton, as I had asked him a question.

I do think it's lame. I also think that at some deep level, people contemplating it know it's morally wrong and this is why they need the societal validation of it being legal.

But again, if they want to whack themselves, that's their business.

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Have you looked up the meaning of the word "plagiarize"? You used the same term in the other thread this morning. I may be mistaken, but I think the phrase you intended to use is "make unsubstantiated claims".
Nope. I meant plagiarize.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 20.11.2016 at 20:48.
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  #44  
Old 20.11.2016, 19:38
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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You missed buses
I deliberately limited the range of possibilities. I don't want to raise anyone's concern (or hopes) unduly as to just how long a list I could put together.

Last edited by JagWaugh; 20.11.2016 at 19:40. Reason: forgot to include hope...
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  #45  
Old 20.11.2016, 19:39
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Yes, but how many people who kill themselves in Switzerland have to avail of the law to have someone else kill them because they are physically unable to do it? There must be some but it is a tiny minority. Most fly over from the UK, check in at the death clinic, and are voluntarily murdered. It's the definition of a slippery slope, as witnessed by Belgium, with it's euthanasia for depressed children.

All life is terminal.
EXIT which is open to Swiss residents only has nearly 24,000 members. Dignitas which you also have to be a member of, but not a Swiss resident will be higher, but I can't find any figures. Actual assisted suicides only seem to be around 1,000+ between both organisations in 2011.

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news...st-five-years/

But Dignitas operates in other countries too so the total figure may be higher.

Yes, all life is eventually terminal. But how you meet that end - with dignity and peace or with pain, suffering and being kept alive no matter what the cost regardless of your wishes - is the question.
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  #46  
Old 20.11.2016, 20:16
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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EXIT which is open to Swiss residents only has nearly 24,000 members. Dignitas which you also have to be a member of, but not a Swiss resident will be higher, but I can't find any figures. Actual assisted suicides only seem to be around 1,000+ between both organisations in 2011.

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news...st-five-years/

But Dignitas operates in other countries too so the total figure may be higher.

Yes, all life is eventually terminal. But how you meet that end - with dignity and peace or with pain, suffering and being kept alive no matter what the cost regardless of your wishes - is the question.
So if you do not kill yourself (or have someone kill you), then you won't die with dignity?

And I don't know anyone who insists on keeping a dying person alive against their wishes.
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  #47  
Old 20.11.2016, 20:51
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Re: Thread split - Abortion debate

NomadAmericano, could you please do us all 2 favors? Pretty please?

1 - Stop derailing every thread with sensationalist comments intended to get everyone wound up and off onto another tangent, and

2 - Use the godforsaken multi-quote button!!

PLEASE.

And thank you.
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  #48  
Old 20.11.2016, 20:59
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Re: Thread split - Abortion debate

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NomadAmericano, could you please do us all 2 favors? Pretty please?

1 - Stop derailing every thread with sensationalist comments intended to get everyone wound up and off onto another tangent, and

2 - Use the godforsaken multi-quote button!!

PLEASE.

And thank you.
So basically, you want me to stop saying things that you disagree with?

I'm discussing; not trolling. Just because you don't agree with me doesn't mean my comments aren't germane.

Last edited by NomadAmericano; 20.11.2016 at 21:13.
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  #49  
Old 20.11.2016, 21:05
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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So if you do not kill yourself (or have someone kill you), then you won't die with dignity?

And I don't know anyone who insists on keeping a dying person alive against their wishes.
Of course you can. And that's exactly what we're talking about, the individual's right to do this as he chooses - whether by assisted suicide or natural death. Again, some people prefer one, others the other. Not everyone with a debilitating, terminal disease wants to stick with it right to the end. They want the option in the UK of saying "no, now is when I want to go. I don't want to become bedridden, paralyzied, helpless, etc. I want to die on my own terms."

If you think doctors won't try and keep patients alive why do you think Do Not Resusitate orders are becoming more and more popular?
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Old 20.11.2016, 21:16
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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Of course you can. And that's exactly what we're talking about, the individual's right to do this as he chooses - whether by assisted suicide or natural death. Again, some people prefer one, others the other. Not everyone with a debilitating, terminal disease wants to stick with it right to the end. They want the option in the UK of saying "no, now is when I want to go. I don't want to become bedridden, paralyzied, helpless, etc. I want to die on my own terms."

I never said someone doesn't have the right to kill themselves. I am unconvinced of a need to have the killing be state-sanctioned.

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If you think doctors won't try and keep patients alive why do you think Do Not Resusitate orders are becoming more and more popular?

I've never heard of a doctor resuscitating someone against their will.
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  #51  
Old 20.11.2016, 21:24
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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I've never heard of a doctor resuscitating someone against their will.
It happens when the patient is not queried about the DNR (do not resuscitate) order. The default is always to resuscitate. And patients are not always asked.
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  #52  
Old 20.11.2016, 21:31
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Re: Thread split - Abortion debate

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So basically, you want me to stop saying things that you disagree with?

I'm discussing; not trolling. Just because you don't agree with me doesn't mean my comments aren't germane.
Where did I say I agree or disagree with you? This thread was split because you dragged the Trump thread off into a debate about abortion. Now you're derailing this one into a debate about assisted suicide.

As for trolling, statements such as "having someone else kill you" and "voluntary murder" are not mere discussion points.
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  #53  
Old 20.11.2016, 21:45
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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I never said someone doesn't have the right to kill themselves. I am unconvinced of a need to have the killing be state-sanctioned.




I've never heard of a doctor resuscitating someone against their will.
As said, unless state sactioned, anyone who helps could be prosecuted.

Doctors will try and resuscitate anyone without an DNR order or living will and may also try even if one or both of those documents exist as they are not legal documents in the US I believe. A DNR/Living Will is legal in the UK.
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  #54  
Old 20.11.2016, 21:47
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Re: Thread split - Abortion debate

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Where did I say I agree or disagree with you? This thread was split because you dragged the Trump thread off into a debate about abortion. Now you're derailing this one into a debate about assisted suicide.

As for trolling, statements such as "having someone else kill you" and "voluntary murder" are not mere discussion points.
So you don't disagree with me, then?

I walked back the voluntary murder comment. However, calling it killing is the most accurate word.Does my failure to use euphemism make you uncomfortable?

I did not raise abortion in the other thread. Someone else did. I added my thoughts on Pence's legislation vs. UK law. People seemed interested in this discussion so it moved to general principals. I don't see you chastising anyone else here, perhaps because you agree with their positions?

And by the way, Marton asked me what I thought about the Swiss euthanasia law. I didn't derail this thread. I answered his question. Others subsequently responded to my answer.

Get your facts straight before you try to shut me up.
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Old 20.11.2016, 21:48
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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As said, unless state sactioned, anyone who helps could be prosecuted.

Doctors will try and resuscitate anyone without an DNR order or living will and may also try even if one or both of those documents exist as they are not legal documents in the US I believe. A DNR/Living Will is legal in the UK.
Your argument about the prosecution aspect is strong. I would support non-enforcement vs. outright legalization.

DNRs and living wills do have legal standing in the US.
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  #56  
Old 20.11.2016, 21:50
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Re: Thread split - Abortion debate

So Nomad is against paying via taxes for things he/she opposes on moral grounds. Hence, state sanctioned abortion and/or assisted suicide.

Unfortunately, as a society, we do not have cafeteria style rights. So we're stuck going round and round.

On balance, however, I feel that allowing choice in these circumstances is less an imposition than denying choice.
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Old 20.11.2016, 21:54
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Re: Thread split - Abortion debate

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Nope. I meant plagiarize.
So, if you meant plagiarize, and you are in fact using the term correctly, then please point us all to the post or document which you are accusing Marton having copied and presented as his own while it was in fact composed by someone else.

If you can't point to such evidence, then what you are making is, in fact, an unsubstantiated claim.
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  #58  
Old 20.11.2016, 22:02
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Re: Thread split - Abortion debate

I don't think NomadAmerican's EF account will ever be aborted. I foresee a penalty within a week if he continues to post like this...
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  #59  
Old 20.11.2016, 22:07
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Re: Will Trump be a Good President?

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I dislike that you sensationalize what is a very difficult decision. I have never heard "death clinic". Don't be snide.
I'm not being snide. I honestly have heard that term used in the U.K. press many times.
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Old 20.11.2016, 22:08
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Re: Thread split - Abortion debate

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So, if you meant plagiarize, and you are in fact using the term correctly, then please point us all to the post or document which you are accusing Marton having copied and presented as his own while it was in fact composed by someone else.

If you can't point to such evidence, then what you are making is, in fact, an unsubstantiated claim.
Look at his post before my comment to him and do the research yourself. I'm not a prosecutor.
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