If you think Swiss immigration is bad...

Shorrick Mk2 · #1 18.07.2008, 16:04

Then this might change your mind.

With apologies and thanks to Bloomberg - I think it's a good story worth discussing.

	Quote:	Bloomberg
	July 18 (Bloomberg) -- Naomi Malca Walls doesn't fit the profile of someone U.S. agents would stop at the border, interrogate for hours, deport and forbid to ever set foot on U.S. soil again. No hint of terrorist ties lurks in her background, not even a traffic ticket. A 32-year-old photographer and Israeli citizen, she carries no plague. She expected no complications at Houston's George Bush Intercontinental Airport in March, when she arrived with her soon-to-be-husband, an American, who had proposed marriage three days earlier while visiting her in Tokyo. Instead, U.S. Customs and Border Protection agents detained her for 30 hours, questioned her, screamed at her, laughed at her, accused her of lying, ignored her questions and her pleas, photographed her, fingerprinted her, searched her and put her in a cold holding cell where she spent seven hours shivering and weeping and wondering what was happening, she recounted four months later. ``They made me feel like I did a crime,'' she says. ``I don't even know what the crime is.'' Then the agents escorted her to a plane bound for Tel Aviv. ``I still don't know what's the reason,'' she said in an international phone call this week. What happened to her is called expedited removal, by which tens of thousands of foreign nationals attempting to enter the U.S. are sent back to their homelands each year. Finding WMD ``Expedited removal is the WMD of immigration law,'' says Kathleen Campbell Walker, immediate past president of the American Immigration Lawyers Association. She practices immigration law in El Paso, Texas. Under a 1996 law, you can be expeditiously removed if a border officer decides either that you lack proper papers or that you are lying about something that matters. If you know to ask, a supervisor can review the decision. And if you fear persecution at home, you can get a hearing on that. But in all other cases, there is no appeal, no judge, no lawyer. And sometimes there is no explanation. Almost 40,000 foreign travelers were speedily booted out from U.S. air, sea and land ports of entry during the last fiscal year, according to the Customs and Border Protection bureau. The number doesn't include others intercepted elsewhere. Five to Life Expedited removal brings an automatic five-year ban on returning to the U.S. If agents think the traveler was attempting fraud, the ban lasts forever. So it was for Naomi, who insists she told the truth and was willing to prove it, to no avail. Extreme treatment based solely on the discretion of one or two border officials is legal for foreign nationals not yet admitted into the U.S. They have no constitutional right to a fair hearing, according to the U.S. Supreme Court. Just because they can be treated shabbily doesn't mean they should be. Often, the travelers' only crime is that they don't know the arcana of U.S. immigration law. ``People just kind of stumble into these terrible situations,'' says Walker, who has no connection to Naomi's case but quickly surmised the problem when told what occurred. Naomi's mistake was in not knowing that you can't use a tourist visa to gain entry to the U.S. when betrothed to an American. No Congratulations? ``I just got engaged,'' Naomi says she told the first agent she saw. ``This is my fiancé.'' ``Soon as I said that,'' she recalls, ``someone took me to the room'' where her ordeal began. Agents assume if you are about to marry a U.S. citizen, you plan to live in the U.S., not merely tour it. You need a fiancé visa, which puts you in the intended immigrant category. Foreign nationals often assume entry will be easier, not harder, when betrothed to an American. Walker remembers a Mexican who cheerfully drove to the U.S. border in her wedding dress. Big mistake. If the agent thinks it an innocent error, the traveler can withdraw the entry application, go back home and apply for the proper visa, as many do. But if the agent thinks the traveler is committing fraud, that's another matter. ``They told me I'd been lying to them,'' Naomi said. About what, they wouldn't say. But she acknowledges her tourist visa had the wrong date for her divorce, an honest mistake. And her previous travels to the U.S. may have worked against her, leading the officers to wonder whether she was actually living in the U.S. Life, not Five No one told her during those 30 hours that she would be banished for life. To date, the only document they gave her says it's a five-year ban. Not being schooled in immigration law, she didn't know that the ``6C1'' an officer wrote on her visa means fraud. As for the other side of the story, a Customs and Border Protection spokeswoman says privacy concerns prevent the agency from discussing individual cases. Yes, the U.S. must protect its borders, which are so porous that more than 12 million illegal aliens now live in this country. And no, Naomi's experience isn't the most horrific immigration story around. But it is plenty bad for her and her now-husband, Scott Walls, a business consultant in Tampa, Florida. Across the Border Yesterday, the couple met up in Toronto. What comes next, they don't know. She may apply for a waiver, but those are hard to come by and expensive to get, given legal fees. Walls, 40, says he has always defended the extra security measures imposed after the Sept. 11 attacks. But these days, he says he is disappointed in what the country has become. ``They take very sound, appealing arguments to the American people,'' such as the need to keep out illegal aliens, he says. ``Then they use that to do whatever they want to.'' Walls says he isn't so sure he wants to live in a country that treats an innocent woman, his wife, the way his did. That's what happens when power goes unchecked.

tomcat · #2 18.07.2008, 16:15

Sad, very sad. Whatever happened to due process ...

Darkphoenix · #3 18.07.2008, 16:36

This quotation has been used often to describe the security/liberty problems in the States . . . .I will say it again then. . . .

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Thanks Ben Franklin for being one of the coolest founding fathers ever. . . I hear the ladies loved him

Nathu · #4 18.07.2008, 16:37

Story link

At least her privacy was respected.

Uncle GroOve · #5 19.07.2008, 11:52

Am I missing something?

I mean, "free trade" white collar republicans clamor for the right to immigrate whatever conveniently priced workforce is available - and the same white collar republicans want tighter border controls, etc?

Someone please explain...

Paul

HollidayG · #6 19.07.2008, 11:58

They want the right people to immigrate. I.e. They want people
to immigrate that will contribute to society and be productive. There
is always a shortage of engineers and software developers.

They do not want people to immigrate that are going to blow people
up.

Zuger · #7 19.07.2008, 12:17

For every story like this, there are 50,000 people who come to the US and do quite well with absolutely no paper-work. When I was in college I worked in restaurants, bars, and clubs. None of the foriegners I worked with (mainly Russian, Latvians, Poles, and Puerto Ricans) had any paper work and were all here on expired visa's. I still talk to these people and most have either started their own business or are doing very well persueing their American dreams. Certainly not all the people succeed,(like this porr guy last year who was arrested when he was flying back to Guatemala after 10 years in the US) but the majority do. No system is perfect. But since there is no real paper-work needed to work in the US (give them an 9 digit number and say "thats my SS#") I think its easier to immigrate.

Americans here are mifted when they have to provide "criminal history from the US government". The embassy here in Bern just laugh's.

madkap · #8 19.07.2008, 12:19

So i guess Republicans or border agents surmise from Soft-ware developers and bomb makers by the kind of engineering plans they bring with them through border crossings?

But to truly "think the think" of republicans one needs first drink as one:
take one part gin,
one part tonic,
a cup of ice and a peanut sized brain tumour situated between the left lobe and the right lobe,and hope the left brain never figures out what the right brain is doing

Uncle GroOve · #9 19.07.2008, 12:38

	Quote:	HollidayG
	They want the right people to immigrate. I.e. They want people to immigrate that will contribute to society and be productive. There is always a shortage of engineers and software developers. They do not want people to immigrate that are going to blow people up.

Wow - "the right people", heh?
So I guess that an israeli woman (Israel being one of US' strategic partners in the mideast) makes her automatically suspicious?
No I think it was just one thick-headed agent going by the book - like the italian "finanzieri" used to do - "the rules are the rules, lady, and I'm here to tell you what the rules read....".

As far as "They want the right people to immigrate. I.e. They want people to immigrate that will contribute to society and be productive"..

Sorry I don't buy it (and don't take it personally): I smell the same double-standards that are applied here in Ticino.
The "Lega dei Ticinesi" wanting the canton for the swiss, and all the foreigners out (together with their UDC bedmates) - but at the same time those same politicos (i.e. Giuliano "Midget" Bignasca - see below) who happen to sit in corporate boardrooms want an immigrant workforce they can squeeze for profit. Don't get me started....

Paul

SPB · #10 19.07.2008, 13:26

	Quote:	tomcat
	Sad, very sad. Whatever happened to due process ...

Out of the window. Quite some time ago.

Nathu · #11 19.07.2008, 14:22

	Quote:	Zuger
	For every story like this, there are 50,000 people who come to the US and do quite well with absolutely no paper-work.

A migrant legally enters the country, overstays the visa and isn't bothered by the authorities ever again. So your opinion is that the broken part of the system can hardly be fixed with draconian border guards, right?

Zuger · #12 19.07.2008, 16:39

Borders are psychological and used as a political tool in the US. When the US talks about "immigration problems" they are talking about Mexicans who speak no english and Muslims who may be discruntled. This is a political rally-cry. Yet its only a small part of the immigration crowd. no border guards can stop it. You simply make the immigrants conceal them selves better.

If some one is any religion but muslim or is of any descent, and speaks the language, no one really notices in the US. Employers in the US will hire them. But working in California you notice that A). Mexicans are sent straight to washing dishes (or picking letuce) unless he speaks english, and B) People of MENA descent start their own business and dont bother trying to get regular jobs, because people are paranoid.

Its not the white-europhile Americans who want the Mexicans to stop crossing the borders. Its the Nortanios (second or third generation mexican families who speak perfect english. if you take away Nortanio violence in California, ie US Mexican killing MX mexican then the murder rate drops in half) who dont want them here so the local politicians latch onto it.

Thus the southern border, with guards, and walls, and cameras, and Walker Texas Ranger (Guns dont kill mexicans, chuck Norris does). Its all political. Why no wall on the Canadian border?

	Quote:	Nathu
	A migrant legally enters the country, overstays the visa and isn't bothered by the authorities ever again. So your opinion is that the broken part of the system can hardly be fixed with draconian border guards, right?

edot · #13 19.07.2008, 18:14

	Quote:	Zuger
	For every story like this, there are 50,000 people who come to the US and do quite well with absolutely no paper-work. When I was in college I worked in restaurants, bars, and clubs. None of the foriegners I worked with (mainly Russian, Latvians, Poles, and Puerto Ricans) had any paper work and were all here on expired visa's. I still talk to these people and most have either started their own business or are doing very well persueing their American dreams. Certainly not all the people succeed,(like this porr guy last year who was arrested when he was flying back to Guatemala after 10 years in the US) but the majority do. No system is perfect. But since there is no real paper-work needed to work in the US (give them an 9 digit number and say "thats my SS#") I think its easier to immigrate. Americans here are mifted when they have to provide "criminal history from the US government". The embassy here in Bern just laugh's.

I guess it depends on where you are....

There is paperwork required to work in the US. Employers should fill out an I-9, showing that the employee is permitted to work. You need to show an employment authorization and have a valid social security number which should be verified. Of course, you can only audit so many of these, so I imagine that many firms can get away with it. I know someone in HR where I used to work - fired because a few employee social security numbers were bogus. So yeah, I'm sure there are loads of people with expired visas in the US, but it would be a little too risky for me.

Most people in the US have no clue what immigration is like - going through the process for my husband when we lived there (2 years for his green card, and then later 6 months for citizenship, rude people, disorganization, losing forms and so on - incompetent bozos making you feel like a criminal), I have to say that immigration here was less painful than opening a bank account. I suppose it's not a fair assessment though since my husband is a dual EU-US citizen and so it was fairly easy based on EU citizenship and I came along for the ride.

Oh, and I lived in North Carolina - huge Latina migration into the state. People would complain about Mexicans - although lots of folks came from central america. But the "Mexicans" built all those overpriced houses, and cleaned the hospital and the uni - none of the locals wanted to do it.

HollidayG · #14 19.07.2008, 18:40

	Quote:	Uncle GroOve
	Wow - "the right people", heh? So I guess that an israeli woman (Israel being one of US' strategic partners in the mideast) makes her automatically suspicious?

Sometimes bad things happen to good people.

	Quote:	As far as "T[I
	hey want the right people to immigrate. I.e. They want people to immigrate that will contribute to society and be productive[/I]".. sit in corporate boardrooms want an immigrant workforce they can squeeze for profit. Don't get me started...

This is called capitalism my friend...Businesspeople need employees
to develop and support their product.

HollidayG · #15 19.07.2008, 18:52

	Quote:	edot
	I guess it depends on where you are.... There is paperwork required to work in the US. Employers should fill out an I-9, showing that the employee is permitted to work. You need to show an employment authorization and have a valid social security number which should be verified. Of course, you can only audit so many of these, so I imagine that many firms can get away with it. I know someone in HR where I used to work - fired because a few employee social security numbers were bogus. So yeah, I'm sure there are loads of people with expired visas in the US, but it would be a little too risky for me. Most people in the US have no clue what immigration is like - going through the process for my husband when we lived there (2 years for his green card, and then later 6 months for citizenship, rude people, disorganization, losing forms and so on - incompetent bozos making you feel like a criminal), I have to say that immigration here was less painful than opening a bank account. I suppose it's not a fair assessment though since my husband is a dual EU-US citizen and so it was fairly easy based on EU citizenship and I came along for the ride. Oh, and I lived in North Carolina - huge Latina migration into the state. People would complain about Mexicans - although lots of folks came from central america. But the "Mexicans" built all those overpriced houses, and cleaned the hospital and the uni - none of the locals wanted to do it.

I am from a border state, and there are an estimated 5 million illegals
there. Getting a SSN is as easy as buying a package of bubble gum.
There is a whole underground industry.

In my state, the illegals, hispanic or otherwise, collect most of their
salaries in cash. Therefore, they pay not a cent of tax on it. Yet
we cater to their children by providing them with Spanish school
instruction. Spanish speaking teachers make $10,000 more per
year than "regular" teachers. The taxes have skyrocketed because
of this.

I do not necessarily know how to stop it. The border along the South
is what 2200 miles long or so.

I think the Swiss do a very good job with immigration. If you don't
belong here, they wish you well and give you 90 days to leave the
country.

In the US if we do something like this, it is "racist" although the
person has no right to be there whatsoever.

With taking your husband to the US, I experienced the same with
my EU wife so we settled in Switzerland instead.

SPB · #16 19.07.2008, 19:08

HollidayG,

Interesting what you are saying, I wonder if it can be stopped in a democratic country. Of course in a brutal dictator-led country the solution is easy. - but in a Western society - whose laws can be broken at will and whose systems like the Health service in England can be abused. It is very difficult to find a solution.

edot · #17 19.07.2008, 19:59

What happened to this woman is absolutely inappropriate, and her fiance' should talk to his congressman and senator. I don't know, maybe he did -sometimes these characters can help if there's been an issue like this - it would to fall under constituent services.

There is no excuse for some of those behaviors as described, no matter what the law.

I guess few of us think about immigration law when we're proposing marriage (or being proposed to). Seems sad that we have to. Perhaps one needs to write along with wedding ettiquite, immigration ettiqute. It's not really a laughing matter though.

And of course, entirely too much is left up to the discretion of immigration officers who can make errors but who don't really have to answer for much. One thing that 911 has done is to give some of these folks an unbelieveable amount of discretionary power. And I don't believe it's always warranted.

HollidayG · #18 19.07.2008, 20:11

The US was a welcoming nation for so long....

Now, they are the border Nazis it seems.

When I travel home as an American citizen, they ask me
all kinds of questions that is really none of their business.

HollidayG · #19 19.07.2008, 20:13

	Quote:	SPB
	HollidayG, Interesting what you are saying, I wonder if it can be stopped in a democratic country. Of course in a brutal dictator-led country the solution is easy. - but in a Western society - whose laws can be broken at will and whose systems like the Health service in England can be abused. It is very difficult to find a solution.

Friends have told me the NHS has become overloaded from so many
recent immigrants that haven't paid into the system.

There must be some kind of middle ground...

vvv · #20 19.07.2008, 20:27

I think there is no Justice for that, and people got no place to complain. As I have seen the programme from TV, not only for immigrants, even for a lot of natives Americans who was born there, just because they have the same NAMEs as terrorists who are black listed by the US Government, they are always being interrogated without reasons, when they are about to pass the security, customs. They could always miss the flights, late for the very important meetings or what so ever.

I don't what to say, just feel sorry.