Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #81  
Old 26.03.2013, 16:28
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Letzeburg
Posts: 1,970
Groaned at 68 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 5,005 Times in 1,780 Posts
crazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Knox case...

given US law regarding double jeopardy, I would put the odds of the US ever consenting to the extradition of Knox to be somewhere between slim to none.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank crazygringo for this useful post:
  #82  
Old 26.03.2013, 16:34
Assassin's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Chasing clouds
Posts: 4,029
Groaned at 180 Times in 123 Posts
Thanked 11,496 Times in 3,132 Posts
Assassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Knox case...

Quote:
View Post
given US law regarding double jeopardy, I would put the odds of the US ever consenting to the extradition of Knox to be somewhere between slim to none.
You're probably right. She'd more than likely be on death row for the same crime Stateside. No wait, she's white, pretty and middle class - ain't gonna happen ....
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Assassin for this useful post:
  #83  
Old 26.03.2013, 16:45
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 18,138
Groaned at 927 Times in 723 Posts
Thanked 19,712 Times in 9,476 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Knox case...

Quote:
View Post
given US law regarding double jeopardy, I would put the odds of the US ever consenting to the extradition of Knox to be somewhere between slim to none.
Except double jeopardy doesn't apply here. The acquittal has been annulled, legally it never happened!

She stands a convicted murderer, and now awaits a new appeal, as the first has been nullified.

Double jeopardy would be if the CC had confirmed the acquittal, and a prosecutor decided to bring her again to trial, which is not the case here.

Tom
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #84  
Old 26.03.2013, 16:48
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 8,975
Groaned at 140 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 12,262 Times in 5,012 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Knox case...

Quote:
View Post
Then I do not understand "why a retrial if the first conviction stands"?

Anyway in most countries re-trials are not allowed, funny system in Italy .
Under the ECHR, re-trials after acquittal are permitted for serious crimes where there were severe failings in the original trial, or significant new evidence comes to light.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank NotAllThere for this useful post:
  #85  
Old 26.03.2013, 17:02
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Letzeburg
Posts: 1,970
Groaned at 68 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 5,005 Times in 1,780 Posts
crazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Knox case...

Quote:
View Post
Except double jeopardy doesn't apply here. The acquittal has been annulled, legally it never happened!

She stands a convicted murderer, and now awaits a new appeal, as the first has been nullified.

Double jeopardy would be if the CC had confirmed the acquittal, and a prosecutor decided to bring her again to trial, which is not the case here.

Tom
that is correct under Italian law, but Italian law is inconsistent with US law (US law does not permit an annulment of acquittal). and, when it comes to extradition, the Italian authorities are going to be stuck with US law.

the unfortunate reality is that this case is, and always was, an absolute mess. I read today that the dude who is still serving time for the murder is eligible for release in 2016, which seems awfully soon for a murder case.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank crazygringo for this useful post:
  #86  
Old 26.03.2013, 17:19
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 189
Groaned at 4 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 194 Times in 95 Posts
Calvin has earned the respect of manyCalvin has earned the respect of manyCalvin has earned the respect of many
Re: Knox case...

Quote:
View Post
given US law regarding double jeopardy, I would put the odds of the US ever consenting to the extradition of Knox to be somewhere between slim to none.
Almost no countries, an certainely not the US, extradite their own nationals.
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 26.03.2013, 17:26
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 18,138
Groaned at 927 Times in 723 Posts
Thanked 19,712 Times in 9,476 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Knox case...

Quote:
View Post
that is correct under Italian law, but Italian law is inconsistent with US law (US law does not permit an annulment of acquittal). and, when it comes to extradition, the Italian authorities are going to be stuck with US law.

the unfortunate reality is that this case is, and always was, an absolute mess. I read today that the dude who is still serving time for the murder is eligible for release in 2016, which seems awfully soon for a murder case.
This is NOT an inconsistency with US law, as the acquittal is not truly valid until confirmed by the CC, which it wasn't.

They didn't have to release them from prison, either, they could have kept them in pending confirmation by the CC (and perhaps they should have).

As they say, it ain't over 'till it's over.

Tom
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #88  
Old 26.03.2013, 17:41
Confloozed's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 4,703
Groaned at 135 Times in 119 Posts
Thanked 4,830 Times in 2,298 Posts
Confloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Knox case...

Quote:
View Post
You're probably right. She'd more than likely be on death row for the same crime Stateside. No wait, she's white, pretty and middle class - ain't gonna happen ....
White people make up the majority, although only 4% more then black people, of death row inmates as of 2012 statistics. Now I doubt if victims care if their attacker is white middle class or poor white trash.

They are dead all the same.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/race...76#deathrowpop
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 26.03.2013, 17:43
Confloozed's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 4,703
Groaned at 135 Times in 119 Posts
Thanked 4,830 Times in 2,298 Posts
Confloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Knox case...

Quote:
View Post
Almost no countries, an certainely not the US, extradite their own nationals.
Based on what? The normal problem with extradition is that if the accused comes from a non death penalty country, to be extradited to one where they could be executed, is the biggest problem. But extraditions happen all the time.
Reply With Quote
  #90  
Old 26.03.2013, 17:48
Confloozed's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 4,703
Groaned at 135 Times in 119 Posts
Thanked 4,830 Times in 2,298 Posts
Confloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Knox case...

Quote:
View Post
that is correct under Italian law, but Italian law is inconsistent with US law (US law does not permit an annulment of acquittal). and, when it comes to extradition, the Italian authorities are going to be stuck with US law.

the unfortunate reality is that this case is, and always was, an absolute mess. I read today that the dude who is still serving time for the murder is eligible for release in 2016, which seems awfully soon for a murder case.
The crime was committed in Italy. No one ever commits a crime abroad then tries to invoke the laws of the country where they come from. If the US says Americans abroad only have to follow the laws of what is legal in the USA, then foreigners have a free pass to do what is permissible in their home countries in the US. Such as some countries leniency on wife beating.

I don't really understand why a public official would fight to be on the side of someone linked to a horrible murder.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Confloozed for this useful post:
  #91  
Old 26.03.2013, 18:13
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 8,975
Groaned at 140 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 12,262 Times in 5,012 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Knox case...

Quote:
View Post
Almost no countries, an certainely not the US, extradite their own nationals.
I've read that three times and still don't understand
Reply With Quote
  #92  
Old 26.03.2013, 18:15
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 8,975
Groaned at 140 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 12,262 Times in 5,012 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Knox case...

Quote:
View Post
The crime was committed in Italy. No one ever commits a crime abroad then tries to invoke the laws of the country where they come from....
On the other hand if country A applies for the extradition of a national of country B for a something which isn't a crime in country B, the extradition request will be denied.
Reply With Quote
  #93  
Old 26.03.2013, 18:19
Confloozed's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 4,703
Groaned at 135 Times in 119 Posts
Thanked 4,830 Times in 2,298 Posts
Confloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Knox case...

Quote:
View Post
On the other hand if country A applies for the extradition of a national of country B for a something which isn't a crime in country B, the extradition request will be denied.
Is that 100% true though? I mean if the person they are trying to extradite, commits a crime abroad, then escapes back home, is that a guarantee?

I can think of some enterprising opportunities if that is the case.
Reply With Quote
  #94  
Old 26.03.2013, 18:36
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 189
Groaned at 4 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 194 Times in 95 Posts
Calvin has earned the respect of manyCalvin has earned the respect of manyCalvin has earned the respect of many
Re: Knox case...

Quote:
View Post
Based on what? The normal problem with extradition is that if the accused comes from a non death penalty country, to be extradited to one where they could be executed, is the biggest problem. But extraditions happen all the time.
Based on national law. In Switzerland the extratition ban is even exshrined in the Constitution:

"Swiss citizens may not be expelled from Switzerland and may only be extradited to a foreign authority with their consent." http://www.admin.ch/ch/e/rs/101/a25.html
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Calvin for this useful post:
  #95  
Old 26.03.2013, 19:21
Pachyderm's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Zurich
Posts: 794
Groaned at 49 Times in 31 Posts
Thanked 1,769 Times in 604 Posts
Pachyderm has a reputation beyond reputePachyderm has a reputation beyond reputePachyderm has a reputation beyond reputePachyderm has a reputation beyond reputePachyderm has a reputation beyond reputePachyderm has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Knox case...

Quote:
View Post
Almost no countries, an certainely not the US, extradite their own nationals.
I don't know what most countries do, but certainly the US has caused a lot resentment in several countries by insisting that nationals of those countries are extradited to the US to answer alleged financial or 'terrorist' offences. It's happened to a number of British people i.e. Brits being extradited from the UK to the US.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Pachyderm for this useful post:
  #96  
Old 26.03.2013, 20:00
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Letzeburg
Posts: 1,970
Groaned at 68 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 5,005 Times in 1,780 Posts
crazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Knox case...

Quote:
View Post
The crime was committed in Italy. No one ever commits a crime abroad then tries to invoke the laws of the country where they come from. If the US says Americans abroad only have to follow the laws of what is legal in the USA, then foreigners have a free pass to do what is permissible in their home countries in the US. Such as some countries leniency on wife beating.

I don't really understand why a public official would fight to be on the side of someone linked to a horrible murder.
the issue here is not whether or not a US citizen is obligated to comply with local law when abroad, but rather whether or not the US would be willing to extradite a US citizen in a situation where the local country differs significantly from US law on fundamental issues of due process. almost without question Knox would have been extradited to stand trial in the first instance for a murder in Italy, but the question now is whether or not she will be extradited to stand trial a second time for the same murder.

my personal guess is no.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank crazygringo for this useful post:
  #97  
Old 26.03.2013, 20:02
Confloozed's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 4,703
Groaned at 135 Times in 119 Posts
Thanked 4,830 Times in 2,298 Posts
Confloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Knox case...

Quote:
View Post
I don't know what most countries do, but certainly the US has caused a lot resentment in several countries by insisting that nationals of those countries are extradited to the US to answer alleged financial or 'terrorist' offences. It's happened to a number of British people i.e. Brits being extradited from the UK to the US.
I think the stats are for every 1 American sent to the UK, 7 Brits have been sent to the US.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Confloozed for this useful post:
  #98  
Old 26.03.2013, 20:12
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 18,138
Groaned at 927 Times in 723 Posts
Thanked 19,712 Times in 9,476 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Knox case...

Quote:
View Post
Knox would have been extradited to stand trial in the first instance for a murder in Italy, but the question now is whether or not she will be extradited to stand trial a second time for the same murder.
Dude, there is no "second trial"!

The first appeal was nullified, they have to redo THAT!

As it stands, she is CONVICTED. It's in HER interest to redo the appeal.

Tom
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #99  
Old 26.03.2013, 20:20
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 8,975
Groaned at 140 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 12,262 Times in 5,012 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Knox case...

Quote:
View Post
Is that 100% true though? I mean if the person they are trying to extradite, commits a crime abroad, then escapes back home, is that a guarantee?

I can think of some enterprising opportunities if that is the case.
Only if it's a crime abroad but isn't a crime at home. For example, denying the holocaust in Austria - if you manage to escape to your home country of, say, the UK, you won't be extradited.
Reply With Quote
  #100  
Old 26.03.2013, 21:01
Jim2007's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Kt. Bern
Posts: 2,086
Groaned at 34 Times in 32 Posts
Thanked 2,069 Times in 1,057 Posts
Jim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Knox case...

Quote:
View Post
Based on national law. In Switzerland the extratition ban is even exshrined in the Constitution:

"Swiss citizens may not be expelled from Switzerland and may only be extradited to a foreign authority with their consent." http://www.admin.ch/ch/e/rs/101/a25.html
A certain Mr. Raoul Weil is well aware of this. He has not been out of the country in a while now
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Jim2007 for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
ICE - In Case of Emergency J.L-P Family matters/health 20 14.04.2009 23:48
Book-case [Zollikerberg] HTD Items for sale 2 23.07.2008 16:49
B to C - latest case in University - non-EU Jasper Permits/visas/government 1 26.05.2008 00:40


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 22:19.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0