[Split thread] Children of illegal immigrants are not Swiss ... comparison with USA

[eddiejc1]

Speaking of protecting children from bad decisions:

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_ne...ml?cid=8136534

P.S. I'm prepared to move this to a new thread in the "Swiss politics" forum if it is too off-topic.

[cannut]

	Quote:	eddiejc1
	Speaking of protecting children from bad decisions: http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_ne...ml?cid=8136534 P.S. I'm prepared to move this to a new thread in the "Swiss politics" forum if it is too off-topic.

I ,as a citizen of Switzerland I am ashamed this happens in Switzerland the sooner this i corrected the better

[eddiejc1]

Clearly, Switzerland does not have the equivalent of the fourteenth ammendment to the U.S. Constitution in their laws, which guarantees citizenship to anyone born within their borders. Now there are anti-immigration advocates in my country who want to repeal that portion of the Constitution, and I expect their ideological counterparts, the SVP to oppose the proposed new law. Hopefully the law will pass, because I expect that these young people are not only hard workers, but (with all due respect to the members of this forum) better able to adapt to Switzerland than adult ex-patriates who move in because they have spent their entire lives there.

[Wollishofener]

	Quote:	cannut
	I ,as a citizen of Switzerland I am ashamed this happens in Switzerland the sooner this i corrected the better

THIS is an absolute scandal, and complete nonsense. If you allow young people to attend school, you also should allow the continuation in some ways.

[22 yards]

	Quote:	eddiejc1
	Clearly, Switzerland does not have the equivalent of the fourteenth ammendment to the U.S. Constitution in their laws, which guarantees citizenship to anyone born within their borders. Now there are anti-immigration advocates in my country who want to repeal that portion of the Constitution, and I expect their ideological counterparts, the SVP to oppose the proposed new law. Hopefully the law will pass, because I expect that these young people are not only hard workers, but (with all due respect to the members of this forum) better able to adapt to Switzerland than adult ex-patriates who move in because they have spent their entire lives there.

Correct about the "no 14th amendment-equivalent" in CH -- but then again, which other countries guarantee citizenship to those born there? Incidentally, my understanding is that the US foists citizenship upon all those born within its borders -- whether citizenship is desired or not. ("Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.") Not a great outcome from a global taxation standpoint, or for those who have an ideological objection to US citizenship.

[amogles]

	Quote:	22 yards
	Correct about the "no 14th amendment-equivalent" in CH -- but then again, which other countries guarantee citizenship to those born there? Incidentally, my understanding is that the US foists citizenship upon all those born within its borders -- whether citizenship is desired or not. ("Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.") Not a great outcome from a global taxation standpoint, or for those who have an ideological objection to US citizenship.

Isn't there some way of relinquishing a citizenship that you don't want?

Surely if you can legally change your name, legally change your gender, then why shouldn't you be able to legally change your citizenship?

[22 yards]

Yes, even in the US, but if the US government suspects that you want to relinquish citizenship to avoid US tax, you're basically stuck with paying US tax for something like a further 10 years IIRC.

EDIT: Looks like you can't escape US tax obligations at all, even if you do renounce US citizenship (according to the US Department of State):

E. TAX & MILITARY OBLIGATIONS /NO ESCAPE FROM PROSECUTION
Also, persons who wish to renounce U.S. citizenship should also be aware that the fact that a person has renounced U.S. citizenship may have no effect whatsoever on his or her U.S. tax or military service obligations (contact the Internal Revenue Service or U.S. Selective Service for more information). In addition, the act of renouncing U.S. citizenship will not allow persons to avoid possible prosecution for crimes which they may have committed in the United States, or escape the repayment of financial obligations previously incurred in the United States or incurred as United States citizens abroad.

[Phos]

	Quote:	22 yards
	Yes, even in the US, but if the US government suspects that you want to relinquish citizenship to avoid US tax, you're basically stuck with paying US tax for something like a further 10 years IIRC.

I'm not so sure about the 10 years thing. A US citizen can renounce their citizenship and stop paying taxes immediately. Many have done that.

[22 yards]

	Quote:	Phos
	I'm not so sure about the 10 years thing. A US citizen can renounce their citizenship and stop paying taxes immediately. Many have done that.

Refer to the bit I just added to my last post ... hey, I just quote stuff, I don't really know anything ...

You are no doubt correct that many ex-citizens of the US do stop paying tax. But that doesn't mean they're not breaking the law.

[22 yards]

I have to admit this has gone off topic (as predicted by eddiejc1) ... so either we get back on topic or I split this discussion out into a new thread. Anyone care to continue talking about the US and its compulsory citizenship and renunciation provisions?

[Phos]

	Quote:	22 yards
	Refer to the bit I just added to my last post ... hey, i just quote stuff, I don't really know anything ... You are no doubt correct that many ex-citizens of the US do stop paying tax. But that doesn't mean they're not breaking the law.

Alright, I think you are mixing issues there. If a law was broken, of course renouncing one's citizenship doesn't clear one from justice. I imagine that is how it is everywhere in the world. One can't commit a crime, then renounce their citizenship thinking they can get away with it.

In regards to citizenship, of course it can be renounced without any penalty.

As for taxes, one is obligated to pay taxes for as long as one is a citizen. The day someone denounces their citizenship is the day they stop paying taxes. Of course, they may still owe back taxes.

America doesn't have laws to keep its people in.

[22 yards]

	Quote:	Phos
	Alright, I think you are mixing issues there. If a law was broken, of course renouncing one's citizenship doesn't clear one from justice. I imagine that is how it is everywhere in the world. One can't commit a crime, then renounce their citizenship thinking they can get away with it. In regards to citizenship, of course it can be renounced without any penalty. As for taxes, one is obligated to pay taxes for as long as one is a citizen. The day someone denounces their citizenship is the day they stop paying taxes. Of course, they may still owe back taxes. America doesn't have laws to keep its people in.

On the basis of some very superficial research (it's late!), I'd say the truth lies somewhere in between. From the NYT three years ago (sorry, but I couldn't be arsed to look further right now):

"In 1996, Congress sought to stop that flow by requiring former citizens to continue filing tax returns for a decade and forbidding Americans who renounced their passports for tax reasons from visiting the United States again."

So it looks like I was more correct the first time around.

Any country that continues to tax its ex-citizens for ten years and refuses entry to them to boot (so they can't even enjoy the results of their taxation!) looks to me like it has laws to intimidate its people to stay in.

[eddiejc1]

	Quote:	22 yards
	Correct about the "no 14th amendment-equivalent" in CH -- but then again, which other countries guarantee citizenship to those born there? Incidentally, my understanding is that the US foists citizenship upon all those born within its borders -- whether citizenship is desired or not. ("Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.") Not a great outcome from a global taxation standpoint, or for those who have an ideological objection to US citizenship.

I believe France also grants the right to citizenship to those born on French territory. Obviously, if the parents are foreign nationals, they have the option of retaining their home country's citizenship for their child. (Perhaps a French citizen, or someone who knows more about French law could clarify?)

The purpose of this portion of the 14th Ammenment was to clearly establish that former slaves were indeed U.S. citizens. In the infamous Dred Scott vs. Sanford decision, the United States Supreme Court ruled that slaves (and even their free descendants) were not U.S. citizens and thus were not entitled to the same rights and protections that other Americans enjoy. The 14th Ammendment overruled this. (It also---and more importantly---established that the Bill of Rights did not just apply to the states but also the people of the states and that states could not infringe upon those rights. That's why the 14th Ammendment is cited so often in cases that go to the Supreme Court.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dred_Scott_v._Sandford

	Quote:	Phos
	I'm not so sure about the 10 years thing. A US citizen can renounce their citizenship and stop paying taxes immediately. Many have done that.

if you want to ditch your US citizenship and you fall in either of the following categories, there is a very stiff exit tax that is levied on all your worldwide assets (real estate, accounts etc...).

- you have a net worth of US $2 million or more
- you have an average net U.S. income of greater than US $139,000

	Quote:	eddiejc1
	I believe France also grants the right to citizenship to those born on French territory. Obviously, if the parents are foreign nationals, they have the option of retaining their home country's citizenship for their child. (Perhaps a French citizen, or someone who knows more about French law could clarify?)

If you are born in France of foreign parents, you acquire of full right French nationality in your majority.
You must, in the date of your majority, live in France and to have had your habitual residence during that time
uninterrupted or discontinuous of at least five years since the age of 11 years.

http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/F295.xhtml (french version)


hope the translation is good

[Corbets]

	Quote:	Phos
	Alright, I think you are mixing issues there. If a law was broken, of course renouncing one's citizenship doesn't clear one from justice. I imagine that is how it is everywhere in the world. One can't commit a crime, then renounce their citizenship thinking they can get away with it. In regards to citizenship, of course it can be renounced without any penalty. As for taxes, one is obligated to pay taxes for as long as one is a citizen. The day someone denounces their citizenship is the day they stop paying taxes. Of course, they may still owe back taxes. America doesn't have laws to keep its people in.

That's not quite true; if the government feels like you're rich enough to be worth stealing from, they stick their fingers in your pockets before they let you go.

Under Billy Boy Clinton (and later made worse for reasonably well-earning expats by Gee Dubbya), a law went into effect mandating that ex-citizens continue filing taxes after renunciation of their citizenship. See this Times article.

More specific details can be found here or here at PwC.

	Quote:	Corbets
	That's not quite true; if the government feels like you're rich enough to be worth stealing from, they stick their fingers in your pockets before they let you go. Under Billy Boy Clinton (and later made worse for reasonably well-earning expats by Gee Dubbya), a law went into effect mandating that ex-citizens continue filing taxes after renunciation of their citizenship. See this Times article. More specific details can be found here or here at PwC.

I didn't know that it applied to long term residents in the US that want to move abroad (not only to people that ditch their US citizenship). It is disgusting.

[evilshell]

	Quote:	ch-expat
	I didn't know that it applied to long term residents in the US that want to move abroad (not only to people that ditch their US citizenship). It is disgusting.

Agreed.

It just validates the US expectation that once you're there, you shouldn't ever want to leave.

[amogles]

	Quote:	eddiejc1
	I believe France also grants the right to citizenship to those born on French territory. Obviously, if the parents are foreign nationals, they have the option of retaining their home country's citizenship for their child. (Perhaps a French citizen, or someone who knows more about French law could clarify?)

Lots of countries do this. The UK did it until not too long ago but tightened the rules over concerns that the rule was being abused. As far as I know the Republic of Ireland still has such a rule and this appllies not just to the territory of the Republic but also to Northern Ireland, giving everybody born there the right to be a citizen of the Republic. It could be that in connection with the Good Friday peace process that this rule was changed as the Loyalists considered it an affront to their principles and maybe even a prelude to a back-door annexation. I don't know. Many South American countries (such as Brazil, Argentina etc) have such a rule as most citizens there are descended from immigrants who came at a time that immigrants were welcomed in large numbers and this was considered the simplest way to handle the situation legally. The laws outlived their usefulness to some extent as today more people leave those countries than come in.

[amogles]

	Quote:	evilshell
	Agreed. It just validates the US expectation that once you're there, you shouldn't ever want to leave.

Well now that toursits have to pay a 10$ admission charge, I wonder if they'll be putting signs up "please don't feed the Americans".