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  #21  
Old 27.01.2014, 15:52
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Re: Important new information regarding vaccines and homeopathy

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Being as science has unable to prove that homeopathy doesn't work - nor in fact have any idea how placebos work - I wouldn't rule anything out!...
Yes it has. The proof (to a reasonable statistical level) that it is no better than placebo exactly proves that it doesn't work. This is what "doesn't work" means in clinical trials. No better than taking nothing (the placebo). Proponents of homoeopathy find this very hard to comprehend, but then, there's no educating true believers.
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Pray tell me, in what way do placebos not reduce health costs? Methinks there's a little tick missing on that list.
Placebos may. Homoeopathic medicines are more expensive than standard placebos and do not. In any case, the chart is related to the claim that homoeopathy is an effective treatment for anything. Which it isn't, because if it was, it would be far more taken up.

Anyway, to bring this thread back on the topic of being humourous:
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  #22  
Old 27.01.2014, 16:11
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Re: Important new information regarding vaccines and homeopathy

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Maybe he needs irony supplements?
Diluted in very small doses.
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  #23  
Old 27.01.2014, 16:19
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Re: Important new information regarding vaccines and homeopathy

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Placebos may. Homoeopathic medicines are more expensive than standard placebos and do not.
depends what you are comparing with what. Costs are largely a question of how you source stuff, and homeopathy is still largely a cottage industry with little recourse to efficiency of scale. How much can water and sugar cost? Maybe big companies should be seeing the opportunities in homeopathy as a placebo rather than declaring it their eternal enemy.

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In any case, the chart is related to the claim that homoeopathy is an effective treatment for anything. Which it isn't, because if it was, it would be far more taken up.
If democratic acceptance is a measure of effectiveness, then you could say that everything that hasn't been discovered yet is totally useless and therefore research is bolocks.
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  #24  
Old 27.01.2014, 16:57
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Re: Important new information regarding vaccines and homeopathy

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... homeopathy is still largely a cottage industry with little recourse to efficiency of scale...

Oh, they do like to peddle their lies. At least this is on topic. One of the funniest things I've read in ages!

Boiron - largest homoeopathic producer in the world. Turnover, €566 Million. Yep - cottage industry for sure! No regulatory compliance, no research, no testing, no trials... Big big profits.
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  #25  
Old 27.01.2014, 17:00
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Re: Important new information regarding vaccines and homeopathy

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Yep - cottage industry for sure! No regulatory compliance, no research, no testing, no trials... Big big profits.
Their water rates must be quite high though.
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  #26  
Old 27.01.2014, 17:07
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Re: Important new information regarding vaccines and homeopathy

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Pray tell me, in what way do placebos not reduce health costs? Methinks there's a little tick missing on that list.
The real challenge is that the placebo effect is blind luck, while treatments tend to be guided luck - or calcuated chance if you will, after all not all treatments work in all patients.

If I had to take a pill which might work based on whether I think it will work or one that had a scientific rationale for why is should work as well as data to support this...
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  #27  
Old 27.01.2014, 17:09
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Re: Important new information regarding vaccines and homeopathy

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Oh, they do like to peddle their lies. At least this is on topic. One of the funniest things I've read in ages!

Boiron - largest homoeopathic producer in the world. Turnover, €566 Million. Yep - cottage industry for sure! No regulatory compliance, no research, no testing, no trials... Big big profits.
I wonder what sort of research or testing you would expect a placebo manufacturer to engage in. I think some people misunderstand the concept of placebo, as in thinking it is bad and dangerous.

I would have thought that the results of ingesting water and sugar have been sufficiently researched. But obviously you think otherwise.
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  #28  
Old 27.01.2014, 17:09
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Re: Important new information regarding vaccines and homeopathy

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Oh, they do like to peddle their lies. At least this is on topic. One of the funniest things I've read in ages!

Boiron - largest homoeopathic producer in the world. Turnover, €566 Million. Yep - cottage industry for sure! No regulatory compliance, no research, no testing, no trials... Big big profits.
It's annoying. Woodoo magic. They should be charged with false advertising, at least. And EU was so big on tightening marketing rules, France was the most insistent on zapping competing imported products. Meh. Protecting customer rights was obviously last of their concerns.
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  #29  
Old 27.01.2014, 17:11
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Re: Important new information regarding vaccines and homeopathy

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Boiron - largest homoeopathic producer in the world. Turnover, 566 Million. Yep - cottage industry for sure!
What? It just means it's run from a cottage, no?


important-new-information-regarding-vaccines-homeopathy-countryhome.jpg
A cottage earlier today
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  #30  
Old 27.01.2014, 17:13
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Re: Important new information regarding vaccines and homeopathy

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If I had to take a pill which might work based on whether I think it will work or one that had a scientific rationale for why is should work as well as data to support this...
There is also a scientific rationale supporting placebos.

Some people make money manufacturing and selling placebos.

What is so immoral about that?

If you don't want your doctor to give you a placebo, all you have to do is tell him. But why seek to take it away from the others?
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  #31  
Old 27.01.2014, 17:15
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Re: Important new information regarding vaccines and homeopathy

Is an electronic cigarette a placebo?
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  #32  
Old 27.01.2014, 17:22
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Re: Important new information regarding vaccines and homeopathy

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I wonder what sort of research or testing you would expect a placebo manufacturer to engage in. I think some people misunderstand the concept of placebo, as in thinking it is bad and dangerous.
I've no issue with placebo, but it's not a word that is interchangeable with homoeopathy. Homoeopathists don't generally claim that their products are placebos - or if they do they claim that the placebo effect shows their products do work. They're either deluded or greedy, cheating liars. There's no research, because they're not allowed to deviate from the "principles" proposed by Hahnemann, and shown to be false. It is an absolute disgrace that homoeopathic remedies are sold alongside medicine that has been proven to be effective. Tantamount to fraud.

Nothing more than cynical manipulation for profit of the gullible. The profit margins are huge.

Quack. Quack. Quack.
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  #33  
Old 27.01.2014, 17:22
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Re: Important new information regarding vaccines and homeopathy

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Is an electronic cigarette a placebo?
It is of you don't put any nicotine into it. But then it'd just be a crap torch.
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  #34  
Old 27.01.2014, 17:23
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Re: Important new information regarding vaccines and homeopathy

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Maybe he needs irony supplements?
Banned in Canada !!!




The last time a Canadian supplimented 'irony' into their song lyrics, studies quickly revealed that the song did not contain any irony at all.
The devestating effects associated with this have consequently left many Americans labelled as "irony deficient" which directly contradict the earlier studies of irony content.

Marmite and other products are also not permitted anymore either.
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  #35  
Old 27.01.2014, 17:27
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Re: Important new information regarding vaccines and homeopathy

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I've no issue with placebo, but it's not a word that is interchangeable with homoeopathy. Homoeopathists don't generally claim that their products are placebos - or if they do they claim that the placebo effect shows their products do work. They're either deluded or greedy, cheating liars. There's no research, because they're not allowed to deviate from the "principles" proposed by Hahnemann, and shown to be false. It is an absolute disgrace that homoeopathic remedies are sold alongside medicine that has been proven to be effective. Tantamount to fraud.

Nothing more than cynical manipulation for profit of the gullible. The profit margins are huge.

Quack. Quack. Quack.
Have you ever seen any placebo that says placebo on the box?

Wouldn't that defeat the point of it being a placebo?

When a trained and qualified medical doctor prescribes a placebo, I'm pretty sure he knows it's a placebo. And such a doctor decides to give you a placebo based on the evidence. Ie, he thinks that at this point in your treatment a placebo would do you good. Maybe at some other point he will prescribe something else.

And I don't know what the lack of research has to do with it. A placebo is a placebo. How do you want to improve on that? You could even conjecture that the lack of research shows the manufacturers know it is a placebo, and is not seeking to cover it up with some fig leaf research programs.

All this drum beating about homeopathy not being effective seems to me akin to a six year old going to school and telling the other kids Santa isn't real.
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  #36  
Old 28.01.2014, 10:31
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Re: Important new information regarding vaccines and homeopathy

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... Santa isn't real.
erm... news for you. Santa isn't real. Your parents lied.

Your argument is that homoeopathy is a placebo and doesn't do any harm. This is false. Your argument would only work if all medicine was placebo.

Homoeopathy is being promoted and marketed as medicine which is as effective as evidence based medicine. Misleading people for profit is unethical and harmful - as in the case of one person who spent 25CHF on a treatment, not realising that it was sugar water until he got home.

Placebo by definition is not as effective as the real thing. Therefore if you deliberately give someone placebo (or persuade them to use it through marketing) when there is a proven effective alternative remedy, you are causing harm. The headache lasts for 6 hours instead of 2.

The use of placebos by doctors is ethically controlled. If they offer you sugar pills when you've a bacterial infection (and they know it), then they could be in serious trouble.
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  #37  
Old 28.01.2014, 11:27
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Re: Important new information regarding vaccines and homeopathy

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When a trained and qualified medical doctor prescribes a placebo,
They don't. All this talk of placebos misses the point entirely - they're used in clinical testing, to disguise who's actually taking the drug under test, and in other experimental situations, but no doctor would actually deliberately prescribe a 'placebo' instead of a real treatment, not least for the fact that such a thing isn't available at a pharmacy.
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  #38  
Old 28.01.2014, 11:34
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Re: Important new information regarding vaccines and homeopathy

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They don't. All this talk of placebos misses the point entirely - they're used in clinical testing, to disguise who's actually taking the drug under test, and in other experimental situations, but no doctor would actually deliberately prescribe a 'placebo' instead of a real treatment, not least for the fact that such a thing isn't available at a pharmacy.
Actually they do. Or, at least they did in the U.K.

There was a homeopathic hospital in the U.K. where doctors would send those patients who didn't actually seem to have anything determinedly wrong with them (i.e. a vague set of symptoms that made them feel unwell) and who wasted so much of the doctors' time and money with their persistent visits to the surgery that they were sent for 'treatment' at the homeopathic hospital.

So, homeopathic hospitals can serve a purpose but I think the Tories have, or will close it as it's cheaper and probably more effective to just tell the 'patient' to "shut the f**k up".
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  #39  
Old 28.01.2014, 11:43
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Re: Important new information regarding vaccines and homeopathy

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erm... news for you. Santa isn't real. Your parents lied.

Your argument is that homoeopathy is a placebo and doesn't do any harm. This is false. Your argument would only work if all medicine was placebo.

Homoeopathy is being promoted and marketed as medicine which is as effective as evidence based medicine. Misleading people for profit is unethical and harmful - as in the case of one person who spent 25CHF on a treatment, not realising that it was sugar water until he got home.

Placebo by definition is not as effective as the real thing. Therefore if you deliberately give someone placebo (or persuade them to use it through marketing) when there is a proven effective alternative remedy, you are causing harm. The headache lasts for 6 hours instead of 2.

The use of placebos by doctors is ethically controlled. If they offer you sugar pills when you've a bacterial infection (and they know it), then they could be in serious trouble.
In that case are you against all placebos?

Homeopathy, when prescribed by a doctor acting professionally, is just a placebo with a more fancy label.

A Volkswagen is a Skoda with a more fancy label. Is Volkswagen an evil corporation criminally misleading it's customers?
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  #40  
Old 28.01.2014, 11:49
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Re: Important new information regarding vaccines and homeopathy

I will repeat:
Science is unable to prove why/how placebos work - and why/how homeopathy works.

We can deride the latter for being a lot of mumbo-jumbo (which it most probably is) but as soon as, within a sample, people "get better" using just homeopathy, proof is required.

The whole debate of placebos is another example. We know there is a placebo effect - we just don't know why or how it happens. There are huge chunks about the human brain we have no idea about - or even close to having an idea about.

They don't yet understand how memories work - or where they are stored - or how something "moves" from short-term to long-term memory - or whether s/t and l/t even exists. And what would actually trigger a memory holding for a long time.
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