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  #41  
Old 28.01.2014, 11:55
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Re: Important new information regarding vaccines and homeopathy

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They don't. All this talk of placebos misses the point entirely - they're used in clinical testing, to disguise who's actually taking the drug under test, and in other experimental situations, but no doctor would actually deliberately prescribe a 'placebo' instead of a real treatment, not least for the fact that such a thing isn't available at a pharmacy.
A few things but first: Thanks! Placebos are not prescribed, they are only used in clinical trial settings.
I have noticed people confuse natural remedies with homeopathic remedies, homeopathy is based in the principles of like cures like (law of similars) and the law of infinitesimals which basically means that the more diluted a substance is the more powerful it will be.

So if you say homeopathy does not work (duh) and it is a placebo, it is not responsible to sell these 'preparations' (more like water) saying that it works.
Finally according to homeopathic laws, the level of dilution needed is not even physically possible to be achieved (I saw this in a Richard Dawkins documentary, and yes I believe Richard Dawkins).

Also, nice article here
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  #42  
Old 28.01.2014, 12:08
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Re: Important new information regarding vaccines and homeopathy

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..... and the law of infinitesimals which basically means that the more diluted a substance is the more powerful it will be. ........
That also explains how FACTS work on the INTERNET.
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  #43  
Old 28.01.2014, 12:13
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Re: Important new information regarding vaccines and homeopathy

In a placebo controlled double-blind homeopathy clinical trial, would it not be conceivable that the placebo actually contains more potentially active ingredients (even if not the intended one) than the remedy itself?

FYI, placebos intended for clinical trials are almost as stricly regulated by the authorities as the treatments themselves.
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  #44  
Old 28.01.2014, 12:17
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Re: Important new information regarding vaccines and homeopathy

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I will repeat:
and why/how homeopathy works.
This website has quite a nice explanation on how it works.
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  #45  
Old 28.01.2014, 12:19
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Re: Important new information regarding vaccines and homeopathy

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This website has quite a nice explanation on how it works.
and I just posted a link to an article on the Lancet...but he has made up his mind
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  #46  
Old 28.01.2014, 17:30
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Re: Important new information regarding vaccines and homeopathy

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I will repeat:
Science is unable to prove why/how placebos work - and why/how homeopathy works....
Two things wrong with that statement.
1. Homoeopathy doesn't work. (Kind of hard to prove why something works, when it doesn't).
2. Science has proved that placebos work.

What science hasn't worked out yet is exactly how the placebo effect works. But they know it does and have proved it.

Homoeopathy doesn't work because it is no better than placebo. The very definition of a medicine working is that it is better than placebo. Medicines and medical procedures don't get approved until they're shown to be better than placebo to a statistically significant level.

All this thread has shown is what bad spellers homoeopathy proponents are.
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  #47  
Old 28.01.2014, 17:32
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Re: Important new information regarding vaccines and homeopathy

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Two things wrong with that statement.
1. Homoeopathy doesn't work. (Kind of have to prove why something works, when it doesn't).
2. Science has proved that placebos work.

What science hasn't worked out yet is exactly how the placebo effect works. But they know it does and have proved it.

Homoeopathy doesn't work because it is no better than placebo. The very definition of a medicine working is that it is better than placebo.
So you agree with me then

(I will dig out references to the studies tonight)
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  #48  
Old 28.01.2014, 17:45
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Re: Important new information regarding vaccines and homeopathy

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2. Science has proved that placebos work.

What science hasn't worked out yet is exactly how the placebo effect works. But they know it does and have proved it.
Not quite. The so-called placebo effect has been observed in some people, some of the time. It hasn't been 'proved', just observed. Not the same thing at all.

"Proof" would require rigorous testing and analysis on a reasonably large scale, subject to the same controls as we use for real drugs, and as far as I'm aware that has not been done.

Splitting hairs? Well, maybe.
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  #49  
Old 28.01.2014, 17:50
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Re: Important new information regarding vaccines and homeopathy

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Not quite. The so-called placebo effect has been observed in some people, some of the time. It hasn't been 'proved', just observed. Not the same thing at all.

"Proof" would require rigorous testing and analysis on a reasonably large scale, subject to the same controls as we use for real drugs, and as far as I'm aware that has not been done.

Splitting hairs? Well, maybe.
Good point. Trying to prove the placebo effect would be nigh on impossible. What your control group be? A placebo placebo?
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  #50  
Old 28.01.2014, 18:08
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Re: Important new information regarding vaccines and homeopathy

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Good point. Trying to prove the placebo effect would be nigh on impossible. What your control group be? A placebo placebo?
What they are trying to do is understand the why/how it happens. As I mentioned earlier - they have even done testing that goes to show that even if a patient is explicitly told they are taking the placebo - it still works.

You could argue that in these cases they disbelieve the scientists, so believe it isn't a placebo, and so experience the same results as just having a placebo. But then that assumes that all patients distrust doctors to the same level.

In the original viagra studies the success rate of the placebo was staggeringly high - which just goes to show, even if you buy the fake stuff you'll still be able to fly the flag!!!
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  #51  
Old 28.01.2014, 18:24
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Re: Important new information regarding vaccines and homeopathy

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In the original viagra studies the success rate of the placebo was staggeringly high
Splitting hairs again, but the _original_ studies were investigating its use for angina and pulmonary hypertension. Its usefulness as a treatment for erectile dysfunction was only noticed by accident, initially as an Adverse Event in those trials.
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  #52  
Old 28.01.2014, 18:34
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Re: Important new information regarding vaccines and homeopathy

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they have even done testing that goes to show that even if a patient is explicitly told they are taking the placebo - it still works.
I'd be very interested in your source for this, because it flies directly against what my formal training taught. The placebo effect is tied to expectation. So removing the expectation that it will work would, and does, remove the effect. If a subject still experiences the effect, then they most likely either didn't believe, or didn't understand that it was a sugar pill.
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  #53  
Old 28.01.2014, 18:38
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Re: Important new information regarding vaccines and homeopathy

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I will repeat:
Science is unable to prove why/how placebos work - and why/how homeopathy works.

We can deride the latter for being a lot of mumbo-jumbo (which it most probably is) but as soon as, within a sample, people "get better" using just homeopathy, proof is required.

The whole debate of placebos is another example. We know there is a placebo effect - we just don't know why or how it happens. There are huge chunks about the human brain we have no idea about - or even close to having an idea about.

They don't yet understand how memories work - or where they are stored - or how something "moves" from short-term to long-term memory - or whether s/t and l/t even exists. And what would actually trigger a memory holding for a long time.

I'm sorry I didn't read this post of yours before engaging you in other threads.
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  #54  
Old 28.01.2014, 18:51
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Re: Important new information regarding vaccines and homeopathy

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I'd be very interested in your source for this
I know but won't say it cause I'll get banned
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  #55  
Old 28.01.2014, 20:12
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Re: Important new information regarding vaccines and homeopathy

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Not quite. The so-called placebo effect has been observed in some people, some of the time. It hasn't been 'proved', just observed. Not the same thing at all.

"Proof" would require rigorous testing and analysis on a reasonably large scale, subject to the same controls as we use for real drugs, and as far as I'm aware that has not been done.

Splitting hairs? Well, maybe.
Good point, well-presented. I stand corrected.

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..., initially as an Adverse Event in those trials.
I'm obviously a child at heart. That made me snigger.
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  #56  
Old 14.11.2015, 16:28
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Re: Important new information regarding vaccines and homeopathy

British government considering scrapping homeopathy on the national health service,

http://www.bbc.com/news/health-34744858
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