My German is not good at all, but here in Bern, no one replies in English to me. In fact, they only would if I asked them to. This applies to doctors, nurses as well as shopkeepers.

And no one here talks about the perspective of the Swiss. To them, Swiss German is their language. They do not much care for High German I am told, and I find this logical as it so distinct.

So if you lived in your own country, and someone comes up to you and cannot speak English, or worse, does not even try, you might have the same reaction a Swiss has.

I think language is such a basic part of life that in German speaking Switzerland you should learn to understand Swiss German (Zurich should be ignored here perhaps). So yes, I think if you live somewhere and make it your main base, you should assimilate a bit. It is not like joining the Borg! I mean you make it sound like assimilation means you lose your own culture which is not the case at all, you just learn other skills in addition.

Once you understand Swiss German, you can always reply in High German. I have the impression that a Swiss person would be happier being able to speak SG and accept that for now you reply in HG.

Oh, and Australia is changing. John Howard has asked the Dutch PM for the CD with the Dutch cultural test that is now mandatory for migrants. Australia has plans to introduce a similar test, making a decent knowledge of the language and culture mandatory.

Wow, all this response is great! Although I'm still no closer to solving my dilemma. I'll give more information.

Basically, my girlfriend (whom I may ask to marry me) is Swiss and we're going to meet the parents and I guess I'll be spending time with her friends there too. (this is in Zurich by the way) So yes, I realize I'd be fine with just English, but I want to learn the language as a cultural gesture more than anything else. I assume that Swiss German is the best way to achieve this?

But as DM pointed out, High German seems much more useful. So would speaking High German earn me any cultural points with the Swiss, or is it no better than just speaking English?

Are they really that different? If I learnt one of them, then would it be easy to pick up the other one?

I'll be coming there in about 3-4 months.

enav
speak high German to them IMO
and if she's really Swiss - don't ask her to marry you until you have a child. It's tradition.....and avoids taxes!

I agree with Lob on that one. Let's also not forget that Swiss do their schooling in high german. Well they are supposed to, but these days many don't. I've met some Swiss who complain that they'd rather speak English than high German, but this is from Swiss that have excellent command of English.

So the bottom line is that you will not disadvantage yourself by learning high German, and you will get major brownie points for putting in the effort. There aren't that many places or books where you can learn Swiss German, since almost everybody learns high german (then has to leave the classroom and deal with something completely different on the street).

You'll find that your girlfriend's parents and friends will automatically speak to you in high German if they hear that you are struggling (which you will!!), but more likely they will just switch to English because it will probably be more comfortable for them than listening to what will be broken German Sorry...

Have you spoken to your girlfriend about any of this? I mean she is Swiss, she knows her own family, and surely she will have some advice for you.

Part of my motivation was that she once said how much she missed being able to speak in her own language (she's been in U.S. for 2-3 years). I know it will probably always be easier for her to speak to me in English, but I wanted to make a gesture by trying to learn her language. I also thought it would be nice if she could speak to her friends/family in a more comfortable language for them, with me at least semi-understanding their conversation.

I didn't speak to her about it because I wanted to surprise her.

If I learnt High German well, then is Swiss German something I'd eventually just pick up with assimilation? I didn't realize that the languages were so distinct.

Thanks again for all this.

A lot of people think that it is just a dialect of German, but in fact the difference is far greater than that. Many people mistakenly think that Swiss German is to German what American English is to British English, but nothing could be farther from the truth - the difference is so considerable that Germans will hardly understand a word when they visit.

If you've learned high German you'll be able to slowly figure out some elements of Swiss german from listening to it. It depends how much you are exposed to it. It took me about 18 months before I could follow other conversations, and that was after I was fluent in high German. It takes German natives a couple of months from what I understand. Now don't forget that Swiss German also changes considerably from area to area (and an area in this country is not very big) so you may get used to Zurich, but you'll have trouble elsewhere. The Swiss are used to hiding in their mountains - I think they like it that way

This is a pretty big step to take just to impress someone. I hope you are prepared for the sheer frustration and hard work which is to follow...

Think of someone from Alabama going to Newcastle in the north-east of England and trying to talk with the locals there....



....and to complicate matters more, the Geordies are drunk and inhaling helium from balloons.


It's still more different

Oh the despair I had walking out of my "Hoch Deutsch" course and into the local supermarket and getting hit with impenetrable "schwiiizer tiitch". Like learning the "Queen's English" in a rough, drunken part of Glasgow.

My German teacher in Australia (ex Hamburg), said "Good luck, I find Dutch easier to understand than Swiss German". Still my favourite was my wife (native Swiss German) asking for directions in Munich. Response back from a local, "Should we speak English?". Gold! And was my wife peeved

My German sucks but I get by. I've been here for a couple of years and I understand a bit of Swiss German but, boy, what harsh language. Worlds apart from German.

Sure after a few years I should have fluent in German, at least high german. But how do you really learn it when you speak English at home, at work and people on the street usually (my esperience, depending on the social status the individuals) prefer to speak to you in Swissie?

It's not an excuse but really, I find that unless you hava a Swiss German girlfriend/wife, or you work in German, it is extremelly challenging to improve you language skills.

A few years ago the mother of an ex-girlfriend came to visit. She said to us "you know, I think I'm starting to understand Swiss German, it's not that difficult". We had to politely inform her that the interactions she had had up to that point had been with Swiss speaking "high" German for her benefit, and not Swiss German at all .

Just a tip (for those who are perplexed) - don't be afraid to ask someone to speak high German, I do this all the time. Most educated and polite people will automatically answer you in high german as soon as they notice that you are a foreigner or if you answer them in high German. There are always those who will continue in Swiss german but if this is the case I usually politely ask them if they could speak with me in Swiss German. Usually at this point they will immediately apologise for failing to recognise the fact and switch. Only on a handful of occassions have I encountered people (adults) who were either unwilling or unable to switch to high german, and to be honest I don't think it was really worthwhile speaking with these people anyway

True - I used to have the same problem when I lived in Germany, I worked in English but at least the language of the street was German. I used to go on week-long diving holidays where I was trapped on a boat with only German speakers - made a huge difference!

My suggestion would be to track down some German speakers and work and ask them if you can only interact with them in German. There's also radio, TV and newspapers... Or find some people with really bad English skills to be your friend - this always works well

Funnily enough I have a number of colleagues here (a minority) that will (if asked to switch away from Swiss German) prefer to switch to English rather than speak High German.....something to do with the fact that our German colleagues here don't learn to speak Swiss German so then some Swiss colleagues won't speak High German but will switch to English....It's a minefield, this strange yet somehow endearing language!!

Haaaaaaa! Ha Ha Ha Ha HAAAAA! The Borg... ah, that's funny!

well lets put it this way...
growing up in australia...with a malay/indian/arabic mother and a swiss father makes life pretty damn interesting..

but when it comes to languages i wish i could say that i was the master of all the languages i could have learnt. unfortionalty (i cant spell) having grown up in australia where english is about the only language u will servive with i learnt very little of the 5 (malay, inidan, arabic, swiss and high german) languages i could have learnt...i understand malay and know many names of things such as door, shoes ect, indian i used to know how to count but not anymore...arabic i know very little only through religion. german from school but this also is minimal...and then of course my belovered swiss...which ive only become fluent in in the last 6 monthes prior to this i had a basic knowledge and could communicate very simply usuing many hand signals...

but in saying this when i came to switzerland i came wanting to learn swiss before german for the simple reason that if u can speak swiss u can speak with the locals and this opens up so many doors so early on. also being the age i am this also makes sence as i would never speak to people my age in high german (even if i could speak high german)

it continues to confuse and drive me up the wall that switzerlands written language is German...where is that going to get anyone...this only helps when u try to speak to a Walliser...(walliser is just some gobeli gook that some random decided to speak...sorry i mean no offence by that and i have nothin agaist the people...just thier funny speak ;-P) i think its reasonable that in school the kids take thier oral lessons in swiss but why write in german...who cant understand written dialect...

now dialect that brings a whole other side to the story but if u ask a swiss person where so and so's dialect comes from they will know. there for writing in swiss german again would be no problem (of course this is minusing those wierdos from Wallis)

so...in saying this...i speak Zuri Dialect (but my fathers side of the family origionate from Bern) and i understand pretty much everything they say with the exception of a few thing...and of course the hidden words and phrases that one only learns with time (but this is also true for Zuri Duutch) as for the other dialects if u curve ur tongue in a funny way i pretty much gaurantee u will be able to speak any dialect...(especially basel ;-P)

as for high german and speaking it...WE ARE IN SWITZERLAND...and those out there who are swiss and try to speak high german forget it...it scares the tourists and the long lost citizens (ie me). it doesnt get me any closer to understanding anything that someone is trying to say if they say it in swiss german and i dont get it and later they repeat it but in high german.

and those of you out there who wonder weather to learn high german or swiss german when u come, its a simple decision...learn swiss german... u will intergrate into soceity much quicker..and when u need to sound sophisticated just simply add "en" to the end of a swiss word eg muche becomes muchen...(hehe) or get people to speak swiss german to you, u will learn it that way and then later take a german class (siwss learning classes are a joke becuase the text book is written in german so if u speak english and not much german or no german ur not goin to get far)

either way...swiss is a great language, once your at the point of understanding the jokes then u know u have progressed from level one to FLUENT.

Ummm, ok - learn Swiss German so you can be totally confused when trying to write (or read) the written (high german) language. Earlier in your post you were bemoaning the difficulties faced by Swiss-German speakers who become confused when having to write in High German but speak dialect. Your answer to this was that Swiss school kids should simply write in dialect. Why is this a dumb idea? Because there is no standardised way to write in dialect, and the dialects are so different. Look at the Romanisch area - they can't agree on which of their dialects should be the standard one, and they all reject the standardised version. Should Zurideutsch just become the standard so everyone else can hate it? Or perhaps everyone over in the French speaking part should have their high German lessons cancelled and just learn Zurideutsch? Think carefully about the implications of what you are saying...

Sad fact is that most young Swiss who are under 25 seem to write in dialect anyway, which is a sure-fire sign for me that they can't spell or write properly - the PISA study seems to back me up on that one.

Boy, I am new to the site and this hit a big nerve!! I speak high German fluently after living here 10 years and studying at the Uni. I notice that whenever I join a group of other students, they immediately switch to high German and the atmosphere gets strained. I understand Swiss German but they seem uncomfortable speaking it when I am around or immediately switch if I miss even one word. That makes me so tense that of course I get confused. When I mention wanting to learn to speak it(my son speaks it and we converse in it briefly sometimes) everyone gets a look of horror on their face and comments range from--Are you crazy, to no, you don't need it, to remarking that it would sound funny, usw. I am so mad about this attitude. I am forced to listen to them switch to (often broken) English the minute they notice I speak English but am discouraged from learning their language. And they complain that people don't integrate! After struggling with friendships(that are supposedly for life compared to the "shallow" American ones(I never noticed that when I lived there)), only having a few, and always feeling like an outsider--well, I can't wait to get out of here!!! It was soo nice being in Italy for vacation and not having to hear all those irritating gutteral swiss sounds--I guess you can only like it if you speak it--and it looks like I neve will.Sorry for the explosion but I have been needing to get that off my chest for a while. whew

Not only the young Swiss people do ...
Anyway, if I do write friends, I just prefer to use Swiss German. It's my monther tongue in the first place. I feel much more comfortable and "authentic" instead of "translating" it to high German.

Are you sure about that? I've never heard of this rule (expect University). I never had a class in high German unless it was German.

Phew! It took me nearly a year to understand more or less everything when I lived in Glasgow and local people talked to each other.

The only big difference between Scotland and Switzerland: The Scots used to correct me, when I used a proper English word. Which helped me to understand it much better and forced me to learning/improving it. On the other hand: Thanks to that, I returned back to Zurich with pretty much of an accent. Which was kind of fun but not very helpful workwise.

True, some of my (Swiss) husband's friends (in their 30s and early 40s) will send him emails written in Swiss German. He mentally translates them to high German, he can't stand to read it in dialect.

My husband tells me when he was in school this was the case. He's 36, so maybe things have changed? Although I cannot understand why education would be provided in a dialect, instead of (one of) the official language of the country.

I have the feeling that we expats tend to think that German is what the Swiss consider their language, perhaps because the written form in official documents is German.

However, it seems in reality each Swiss person outside of Romandie and Ticino feels most at home with their own version of Swiss German.

So I think that although linguistically, you could argue that Swiss German is never more than a dialect that varies upon location (because it does not share a unified written language base), this could be an old fashioned way of defining language.

If the Swiss prefer to speak their own Swiss German, and if the young people write in it, this is effectively their true language, and it may evolve into a more widely adopted written form over the next few decades, you never know.

I'm 32. So maybe it depends on the area. Of course we would read/write in high german but discussing a topic in history was defo not always in high german.