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Old 15.01.2015, 13:40
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French Subjunctive

I am going crazy with this.

I have looked up quite a few sources, include about.com (seems like a ubiquitous resource) and did a search on EF, but I cannot for the life of me understand the subjunctive mood (le mode subjonctif).

Now what seems to be common is that (a) it always seems to follow que (or be used in a clause which is preceded by que), and (b) it is used to express:
  1. Wish, will or want
  2. Emotion or sentiment
  3. Doubt or possibility
  4. Recommendation
  5. Necessity
  6. Judgement
...and if we are really honest with ourselves, these kinds of things manifest themselves in real life a lot of the time.

The main problem I have is that, at least instinctively, the subjunctive doesn't offer a great deal of explicit or implicit semantic difference in a given sentence compared to using the indicative. For example:

Il faut que nous partons maintenant (indicatif)
Il faut que nous partions maintenant (subjonctif)
We must leave now (literally, it is necessary that we leave now).

Another example:

Il n'y a rien que nous pouvons faire. (indicatif)
Il n'y a rien que nous puissions faire. (subjonctif)
There is nothing (that) we can do.

According to about.com, there are many sentence patterns that lend themselves to the use of the subjunctive, and as I said that actually covers a lot of everyday life let alone in a more serious environment (e.g. giving an opinion, instructing someone, lecturing on a point or activity, giving orders, etc.). This concerns me because I am only mainly comfortable so far with the indicative and the conditional (the latter to a smaller degree, since I seem to get away with not having to use it so often).

I do find myself often using il faut que (or <quelqu'un> devoir <verbe>) so I'm thinking those must use the subjunctive, but I am using the indicative.

So what is the go?
  1. If I use the indicative instead of the subjunctive, is it (i) grammatically incorrect and won't be understood, (ii) gives the wrong meaning / intention, or (iii) not correct strictly but can get away with it?
  2. What if it were the other way around, viz. subjunctive in place of indicative?
  3. Would there be situations where using indicative instead of subjunctive be perceived as being rude, direct / assertive or otherwise impolite?
  4. Is there any use of the subjunctive apart from in que clauses?
  5. Is the subjunctive used less in real life compared to the degree which I appear to be freaking out about?
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Old 15.01.2015, 15:02
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Re: French Subjunctive

subjonctif is used everywhere and it is a way to soften what you are saying. I do not believe there is such a equivalent in english. you may add the words 'si jamais' too to soften a question for example

in your example: there is nothing we can do would be in subjonctif something like : there is nothing that we may have done or were supposed to if we look back to it in the future...
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Old 15.01.2015, 17:33
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Re: French Subjunctive

Il faut que nous partons maintenant (indicatif)
Il faut que nous partions maintenant (subjonctif)

In fact, only the latter is correct, but in practical terms, I would use the third person singular subjunctive and say "il faut qu'on parte maintenant". "Nous" isnt used a whole lot round here (Vaud).
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Old 15.01.2015, 17:36
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Re: French Subjunctive

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subjonctif is used everywhere and it is a way to soften what you are saying. I do not believe there is such a equivalent in english.
It does exist in English, though the only verb I can think of that has a different form for the subjunctive is 'be'.

Tom
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Old 15.01.2015, 17:37
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Re: French Subjunctive

You can also use avoiding tactics- and use French which is just as correct, and say

Nous devons partir or, more informally 'on doit partir'.

or. Nous ne pouvons rien faire.

Pourquoi chercher midi ā 14 heures? (why make things more complicated than they have to be)? This is what most modern French speakers to- avoid the subjunctive, which too often sounds over formal. Still a useful tool for expert linguists- but otherwise, learn to get around it for normal communication. These simplified forms are perfectly gramatically correct.
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Old 15.01.2015, 17:43
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Re: French Subjunctive

So what is the go?
  1. If I use the indicative instead of the subjunctive, is it (i) grammatically incorrect and won't be understood, (ii) gives the wrong meaning / intention, or (iii) not correct strictly but can get away with it? Number iii
  2. What if it were the other way around, viz. subjunctive in place of indicative? Same answer as before
  3. Would there be situations where using indicative instead of subjunctive be perceived as being rude, direct / assertive or otherwise impolite? No
  4. Is there any use of the subjunctive apart from in que clauses? Not as far as I know
  5. Is the subjunctive used less in real life compared to the degree which I appear to be freaking out about? Its used when needed, which isnt a lot
[/QUOTE]

If I were you, I would carry on using the indicative. You will be understood, and not thought impolite. Many locals have trouble too. I didnt do any French classes when I arrived here, but learned the language by working in it, and listening to others. I use the subjunctive because I heard others do it in the early days. Its the same as when, after a while, you just wouldnt say "le table", because you have heard people say "la table" over and over again.

When speaking, these things are unimportant. We all say "j'ai plus de monnaie", but we write "je n'ai plus de monnaie", when we don't have any change left. You need to write correctly, as the impact of your words is greater, but the spoken word is over quickly, and being understood is what matters.
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Old 15.01.2015, 17:47
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Re: French Subjunctive

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Il faut que nous partons maintenant (indicatif)
Il faut que nous partions maintenant (subjonctif)

In fact, only the latter is correct, but in practical terms, I would use the third person singular subjunctive and say "il faut qu'on parte maintenant". "Nous" isnt used a whole lot round here (Vaud).
So the former (using the indicative) is not correct at all, i.e. would not be understood or just grammatically wrong? I guess this is more a literary point than an oral one.

I assume that the "literal" translation using on instead of nous would be, "One should leave now", which in context is understood as "us" when it is said.

Is there a reason for this? (Going off topic now) but even in some native French I heard that use of nous (first person plural) is minimised in favour of on (third person impersonal singular, as I understand it). I know in some languages, the use of such constructions basically make you sound less uppity / less arrogant.

The worst part (maybe not, because I shouldn't advocate it at all and I don't always trust it) is that whilst Google Translate will (somewhat) accurately translate French from any mood to English, the converse isn't true. I have never seen Google give a translation in the subjunctive - it always gives it in the indicative (or conditional as it may be).
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Old 15.01.2015, 17:50
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Re: French Subjunctive

I think the best is to not be too analytical at the beginning. Memorize it for certain special instances. Try to analyse after about a year of experience with spoken French, while actively noticing when reading press. Brainiacs complicate their intuitive learning a bit..you definitely will start using it correctly after some exposure. We all do.
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Old 15.01.2015, 17:51
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Re: French Subjunctive

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You can also use avoiding tactics- and use French which is just as correct, and say

Nous devons partir or, more informally 'on doit partir'.

or. Nous ne pouvons rien faire.

Pourquoi chercher midi ā 14 heures? (why make things more complicated than they have to be)? This is what most modern French speakers to- avoid the subjunctive, which too often sounds over formal. Still a useful tool for expert linguists- but otherwise, learn to get around it for normal communication. These simplified forms are perfectly gramatically correct.
Yep that's what I do most of the time when speaking as it means not having to think too much about what I'm saying.

I do have a fairly good grasp of it and have revisited it thanks to helping son to revise for tests but frankly life's just too short to worry about such things so I prefer to use the avoidance tactics.
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Old 15.01.2015, 18:06
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Re: French Subjunctive

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If I were you, I would carry on using the indicative. You will be understood, and not thought impolite. Many locals have trouble too. I didnt do any French classes when I arrived here, but learned the language by working in it, and listening to others. I use the subjunctive because I heard others do it in the early days. Its the same as when, after a while, you just wouldnt say "le table", because you have heard people say "la table" over and over again.

When speaking, these things are unimportant. We all say "j'ai plus de monnaie", but we write "je n'ai plus de monnaie", when we don't have any change left. You need to write correctly, as the impact of your words is greater, but the spoken word is over quickly, and being understood is what matters.
I haven't done any French classes at all yet either, although I have a two week intensive coming up. That said, I've been here now for just under five months or so and I would probably self-rate myself at an A1 level. In order of descending proficiency, my skill set would be reading, writing, speaking then listening.

When recognising written French or what people are saying (when I can at least hear what was said - I still struggle with this!), I often find myself looking at the verb stem for clues on what was communicated. This is I suppose one reason why I don't seem to recognise the use of the subjunctive (or other moods, apart from conditional), but having read a lot about French grammar online (about.com, Youtube videos, etc.) it seems subjunctive is important but I have no idea why and naively not using it.

I can try and struggle with imparfait/plus-que-parfait/passe compose but subjonctif is really kicking my head in.

As much as some of us hope that the English language doesn't degenerate into a grammatical quagmire (thanks to common and uncorrected misuse of words and grammar), I don't want to unwittingly contribute the same way to the French language.
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Old 15.01.2015, 18:11
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Re: French Subjunctive

In which case, as said above- just forget about it- you do NOT need it- especially not after 5 months and at A1 level. Learn it at C+ stage.

Most of the expressions that require the subjunctive can be replaced (see examples above) with other totally correct forms, so why not?

At C+ level, or baccalaureat/Matura/A'levels- then it's worth coming to grips with such things. As a Mod Langs teacher, it does my head in, as you say- that beginner and intermediate students are expected to know and manipulate structures that even well educated natives don't use. WHY?

The aim is confident and effective communication, as accurately but not as complicated, as possible. Enjoy- bonne chance.
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Old 15.01.2015, 18:42
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Re: French Subjunctive

Jawohl. It's recognizable and understandable, but unless the situ really really calls for it (il faut que tu saches), I wouldn't sweat it. It's a bit of a dinosaur structure..cute, and impressive, but can frustrate beginners.
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Old 15.01.2015, 18:45
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Re: French Subjunctive

Avoidance tactics are just great, and should be used to the utmost. In the early days, I had problems pronouncing the French word "queue", as it could sound like the French word for a**e if pronounced wrongly. So I never said "queue", but always used the word "file" (short for file d'attente)

Those were the days!
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Old 15.01.2015, 18:48
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Re: French Subjunctive

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Avoidance tactics are just great, and should be used to the utmost. In the early days, I had problems pronouncing the French word "queue", as it could sound like the French word for a**e if pronounced wrongly. So I never said "queue", but always used the word "file" (short for file d'attente)

Those were the days!
That's very helpful, thanks... I am tired of saying il y a beacoup de monde.

I am still avoiding sweater vs chicken. (Old chicken).
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Old 15.01.2015, 19:11
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Re: French Subjunctive

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I would probably self-rate myself at an A1 level. In order of descending proficiency, my skill set would be reading, writing, speaking then listening.
If you are writing sentences in the indicative (and are considering the use of the subjunctive) like the one below and particularly if you are using them in speech, I think you need to reassess your level. It looks beyond A1 to me.

Il faut que nous partons maintenant (indicatif)
Il faut que nous partions maintenant (subjonctif)

Il n'y a rien que nous pouvons faire. (indicatif)
Il n'y a rien que nous puissions faire. (subjonctif)
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Old 15.01.2015, 19:29
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Re: French Subjunctive

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It does exist in English, though the only verb I can think of that has a different form for the subjunctive is 'be'.

Tom
It does exist in English.

the only problem is a lot of people ignore it or get it wrong.

http://www.englishpage.com/minitutor...bjunctive.html

I had a Latin teacher at school who always said, you need to learn foreign languages to use English properly.
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Old 15.01.2015, 19:33
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Re: French Subjunctive

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If you are writing sentences in the indicative (and are considering the use of the subjunctive) like the one below and particularly if you are using them in speech, I think you need to reassess your level. It looks beyond A1 to me.

Il faut que nous partons maintenant (indicatif)
Il faut que nous partions maintenant (subjonctif)

Il n'y a rien que nous pouvons faire. (indicatif)
Il n'y a rien que nous puissions faire. (subjonctif)
I can read a lot better than I can speak or listen. I'd say one is only as good as the weakest skill. So I self-assessed at A1.

Not to mention that those two sentence (sets) are pretty basic anyway, except for the use of que (used to join two clauses), as they all contain at least some of the most common French verbs (avoir, falloir, faire, pouvoir) all conjugated at the present indicative, and that magic phrase Il y a.

Even though my reading is fairly decent, this is mostly public signs, restaurant/cafe menus, supermarket signs, reading food labels, some of our work emails (which are either French or bilingual), some advertising material and simple websites. And at that, some of it is not necessarily exactly understanding but more guessing (e.g. looking at context, verb stems, subjects/objects, sentence structure, presence/absence of composite tenses, it looks like that English word, etc.). More advanced written stuff like much of the newspaper/online news, government notices, official contracts and terms/conditions (including gerance contracts), literature and even the travel guide my flatmate wrote and published are still somewhat out of my comfortable grasp.
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Old 15.01.2015, 20:17
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Re: French Subjunctive

Having done an Italian A1 course recently and having had to sit a comic A2 German test for my C permit (that I reckon I could have passed in Italian) I can't stress enough how basic A1 actually is. It is all present tense indicative voice, very limited if at all use of modal verbs, simple sentence structure (i.e. no clauses). What you are using is beyond that.
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Old 15.01.2015, 20:57
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Re: French Subjunctive

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So the former (using the indicative) is not correct at all, i.e. would not be understood or just grammatically wrong? I guess this is more a literary point than an oral one.

I assume that the "literal" translation using on instead of nous would be, "One should leave now", which in context is understood as "us" when it is said.

Is there a reason for this? (Going off topic now) but even in some native French I heard that use of nous (first person plural) is minimised in favour of on (third person impersonal singular, as I understand it). I know in some languages, the use of such constructions basically make you sound less uppity / less arrogant.

The worst part (maybe not, because I shouldn't advocate it at all and I don't always trust it) is that whilst Google Translate will (somewhat) accurately translate French from any mood to English, the converse isn't true. I have never seen Google give a translation in the subjunctive - it always gives it in the indicative (or conditional as it may be).
The two sentence examples that you gave using the indicative are grammatically wrong. You will be understood but your listener will peg you instantly as struggling and will probably switch to English.

As others have said, just avoid it altogether. Use devoir instead of il faut que. Frankly, if you are just out with your friends and it's time to go, you are probably just going to say "on y va" ou "partons dans quelques minutes" or something informal like that. You're not going to be whipping out your subjunctive.

And yes, subjunctive absolutely does exist in English, albeit a very high level of English, like in the sentence "Please lower your voice in order that he not hear what we are saying" or "Hurry up lest we be late", etc.

The confusion about the frequency in which you will hear "on" lies in the fact that the French use "on" as their informal go-to pronoun just as we use the informal "you". If you start thinking of "on" not just as the pronouns "one" or an informal "we" but as the English equivalent of the generic "you", you will better understand why it is everywhere.
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Old 15.01.2015, 21:39
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Re: French Subjunctive

It seems to me that in spoken French most people don't care. It's certainly classy to get it right, but it's not a disaster to use the indicative. Similarly, as someone mentioned, saying "je sais pas" without the "ne" is very frequent and not a big mistake, but it is not classy - I never do it .

I read an email this week which included "il faut que j'est...". Oh dear, it should be the subjunctive of avoir : "aies" (or is it "aie"? wtf). The (French) writer knew that the subjunctive was needed, but didn't know how to spell it... Moral of the story: Foreigner learners - don't sweat what doesn't really matter!
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